Minutes of the November 18, 2007 College of Heralds Meeting

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Maela Caimbeul, Thomas Quatrefoil, Eridana Trident, Catrin Golden Rose, Damien Sable Fret, Marion Coral, Sechequr Qara, Cassandre Nicole Loustaunau, Barbara Fuentes.

Upcoming meetings are: December 9, 2007.

Please note the change in submission fees. Starting January, the fee for new submissions will be $8. Primary name and primary device submitted together will be discounted an additional $1, making them $15 total. In January, February and March 2008 we will not be charging for resubmissions, no matter the length of time since the original return.

Email change! The Caid Heralds mailing list is now at . Likewise, forwarding addresses previously on castle.org have been relocated to sca-caid.org.

The Caid Roll of Arms is now under the control of Edborough Kellie at http://roa.sca-caid.org/, and the College needs to decide upon its future disposition. Please enjoy this service and check it for errors.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the January 29, 2008 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Ysoude of Rochester. New device. Quarterly sable and azure, four fleurs-de-lis in cross bases to center within a bordure argent.

[Name] Registered 05/05.

[Armory] Unfortunately this conflicts with Purpure, a cross flory within a bordure argent (Anne of the Golden City 01/74) with only one CD via X.4.a for the change to the field. No CD is given between a cross flory and four fleurs-de-lys in cross. They are considered variants of each other.

Device returned for conflict.

Calafia, Barony of

Amos the Pious. Kingdom resubmission device. Per chevron gules and sable, three Latin crosses crosslet one and two and a chalice Or.

[Name] Registered 11/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission was returned by Crescent 05/06 for redraw:

This must be returned for difficulties identifying the charges. (see: RfS VII.a) The per chevron division is too low, looking more like a point pointed, however such an interpretation would break the rule of tincture. Also the small crosses on the crosses crosslet need more definition to be easily distinguished from a distance.

This emblazon fixes the problems with the previous emblazon. No conflicts found.

This submission is not timely according to current Caidan policy. A new fee was paid.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Alexandra Raven. New name.

[Name] Submitted as Alexa Raven. Submitter will allow minor but not major changes. No other boxes are marked. Submitter will allow change to "Alexandra" if necessary to register the name.

Alexandra is in Withycombe (p.14, header) as a feminine form of Alexander, dating to 1205. The submitter prefers the diminutive form Alexa, but we were unable to find any supporting documentation for that form and have changed the name per her instructions.

Raven is found in R&W (pg. 372, header), from the bird. William Raven 1133-60.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dragon Georglev syn rudak. Kingdom resubmission name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will allow minor but not major changes. No other preferences are indicated but he states:

I will accept a minor change to "Georgliev" if this is deemed necessary to get the name passed,

Rudelin was suggested by Selene during my original consultation, I had wished to use "rudak" for red-haired but there was more than 300 years between that and the documented use of "Dragon". I will accept a minor change to "Ruda or Rudelin" if necessary. Though I would still prefer to use "Rudak" if at all possible.

The submitter's previous name submission, Dragon Georglev syn Rudelin, was returned by Crescent 06/07, "As we are unable to document the spelling of submitter's desired patronymic, or the construction of given name, patronymic, patronymic, and as he allows no changes, we are forced to return this name for further consultation. (RfS III.1)."

Dragon is found in Thanet (pg. 74, header) dated to 1052 as a given name. It is also listed in the online version at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/d.html

Georglev syn is a patronymic construction meaning "Son of Georgi," a name found in Thanet (pg. 107, s.n. Georgii). Construction conforms to the rules expressed here: http://www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/zgrammar.html pg xxii

rudak is a patronymic meaning "son of the red haired", and refers to the hair-color of Georgi, not Dragon. We believe that it belongs in the genitive, but do not know enough about how to do so in Russian to proceed. Nonetheless, we believe this is adequate to forward for consideration and help from the College of Arms.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Éadaoin inghen Muircheartaigh. Kingdom resubmission name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about unspecified sound. The submitter's previous name submission, Éadaoin Ó Muirgheasa, was returned by Crescent 06/07 for gender inconsistency. The minutes suggest, "The correct patronymic for a woman would be 'inghean uí Mhuirgheasa.'"

Éadaoin is found in Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's "Index of Names in Irish Annals" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/index.shtml). Éadaoin is the early modern Irish Gaelic nominative form (1200-1700). The source lists Éadaoin inghen Még Mathgamma ben Még Uidhir, 1328 (also in 1393,and 1476).

inghen Muircheartaigh is a patronymic meaning "daughter of Muirchertach." The name is also found in "Index of Names in Irish Annals." It is the early modern Irish Gaelic genitive form (1200-1700).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Elizabeth de Grace. New name and device. Per fess vert and sable a demi-sun issuant from the line of division Or.

[Name] Submitter will accept minor but not major changes and cares about unspecified sound. Submitter is aware the "de" may be changed to "le" to register. We note that the request for authenticity was initially marked but crossed out prior to submission.

Elizabeth is found in Withycombe (pg. 99, header) "found in England from time to time in the 13th &14th C, but did not become common until the end of the 15th C… Elizabeth Cur 1205".

Grace is found in R&W (pg. 201, header). Meaning for this surname comes from various sources. OFr grace, or ME grace, gras 'a pleasing quality' ie 'attractive, charming'. Another meaning is from the OFr gras meaning 'fat' or OE gras 'one who puts out cattle to grass.' William Grace 1310.

[Device] This conflicts with Sable, the upper half of a mullet of four greater and twelve lesser points Or (Kara the twin of Kelton, 01/97). There is one Clear Difference via RfS X.4.a for changes to the field. No difference is granted between a poly-pointed mullet and a sun.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.

Gemma Evangelista Borgia New name and device. Purpure, a bend sable fimbriated between a stag springing and an arrow bendwise argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name and will allow minor but not major changes. No other preferences are indicated.

Gemma is a given name in http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/italian.shtml. It is a name occurring 11 times in the 1427 Catasto of Florence.

Evangelista is the submitter's legal middle name as documented by a copy of her driver's license.

Borgia was the surname of a daughter of Pope Alexander VI (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-908074E2/Lucrezia-Borgia). From Spain, Rodrigo was born into the Spanish branch of the prominent and powerful Borgia family. Lucrezia was born in 1480, died 1519. We note with interest that Webster's Biographical Dictionary states that the original Spanish form is Borja.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gregory Lucan. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will allow minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about sound "Lu-can". The submitter specifically accepts the alternate spelling Lukyn (R&W, pg. 285, s.n. Lovekin).

Gregory is from Withycombe (p.139, header). This name was not found before the Norman Conquest, but was common in the 12th C and later. Gregory HR 1273.

Lucan is found in Searle (pg. 350, s.n. Luca). The entry simply says: "Luca local : Lucan beohr". If we've misread the entry, the submitter will allow the English name Lukyn noted above.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Haraldr hlátr drengr. New name and device. Argent goutty de sang and a mountain vert.

[Name] Submitter will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the unstated language and culture and indicated to the submitting herald that he preferred the meaning, "Laughing Boy".

Haraldr is a masculine given name in Geirr Bassi (p.11).

hlátr drengr is a descriptive byname meaning, "laughing boy." Hlátr is found in "Zoega's A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic" (http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h201.php) meaning laughter or laughing. Drengr is found in the same source, (http://www.northvegr.org/zoega/h093.php) meaning "man" in various connotations. The Nordiskt runnamnslexikon confirms this, stating that the word comes from OW Norse and means "young man".

The submitter indicated to the submitting herald that he wishes for a surname meaning "the boy [or man] who laughs". He has explicitly stated on the form that he will accept "Haraldr hlátr-drengr", "Haraldr hinn hlátr-drengr", and "Haraldr drengr hinn hlátr". We are not knowledgeable enough in Old Norse to determine which would be the best choice based on the submitter's preferences. We request the College's assistance and advice in this matter.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Sabyna of Aydon Kingdom resubmission device. Per pale azure and argent, in pall three card piques bases to center counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter's name was forwarded to Laurel on the 10-31-07 LoI.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Azure, a horse rampant between in bend a card pique and a card pique inverted argent, was returned by Crescent 08/07 for redraw – the card piques were too small to be distinguished. This is a complete redesign.

Unfortunately, this design conflicts with Per pale azure and argent, three seeblatter counterchanged (Johanna de Glastingburi 11/06) with only one CD for the change in orientation of primary charges. No CD is granted for the difference between a seeblätt and a card pique.

Device returned for conflict.

Dun Or, Barony of

Colyn mac Labhruinn. New name and device. Per chevron inverted azure and sable, in base a stag courant Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept all changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the sound, "Call in Mac Lawr in".

Colyn: The submitter provides documentation for "Colyne" (with an –e) from "13th and 14th Century Scottish Names" by Symon Freser of Lovat. Withycombe indicates that the Anglicized version of the name, Colin, was a common Scottish name. She dates the use to 1379 from the Poll Tax (pg. 74). We believe that the submitted form is a reasonable combination of the documented variations.

mac Labhruinn is found in Black, (p534, s.n. MacLaren), as the Scots Gaelic form, and states, "In G. Mac Labhruinn, 'son of Laurence' (G. Labhruinn, MG. (1467) Labhran).

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Muiriath ingean Sheain. New name and device. Argent, in pale a crescent and a cat passant sable between flaunches vert.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept all changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound "Myoo Rye ith in-yen Sheen".

Muiriath is found in "Early Irish Feminine Names from the Index to O'Briens Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae," by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn. (http://heatherrosejones.com/names/goedelic/obrien/obrienwomen.html)

inghean Sheain is a patronymic meaning "daughter of Sean". Seán is found in OCM (pg. 163, s.n. Seaan). The lenited genitive form is Sheain from page 4 of Mari Elspeth's article, "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Seán (Seóan)" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/all.shtml).

[Device] This device is clear of Argent, in pale two crescents gules between a pair of flaunches vert (Adwen verch Gryffyn, 11/00), with a CD for change in color of primary charge group, and another CD for change in type of half of the primary charge group.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Sechequr Qara. New name change and new device change. Per bend argent and sable, a yale rampant Or spotted maintaining a sword gules.

[Name] The submitter's original name Tairdelbach M'Cleri was registered 07/05 and is to be retained as an alternate.

The submitter is interested in a masculine, Mongolian name, will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made is most interested in the Mongolian language/culture.

Sechequr is found on Heather Daveno's "Names from the Secret History of the Mongols" (http://www.laohats.com/Names%20from%20The%20Secret%20History%20of%20the%20Mongols.htm) where it is listed as a masculine name on page 126 of the original document.

Qara is found Baras-aghur Naran's "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names" (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/mongol.html) where it is listed as the color black.

Also, according to this reference, "the meanings of these names are descriptive, and are usually nouns and adjectives." While we could not determine a meaning for the name Sechequr, or the correct name order, the submitter was attending the meeting and will accept the changing the name order to Qara Sechequr if needed for registration.

[Armory] The submitter's original submission Per bend argent and sable, a yale rampant gules spotted maintaining a sword Or was registered 07/05 and is to be released if this submission is registered. We note this does not conflict with (Fieldless) A yale rampant Or (Elizabeth Braidwood 09/00) with one CD for changes to the field and a second CD for addition of the tertiary spots.

Name and device change approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Irmgard von Einbeck. New device change. Per pale pupure and argent, two seeblätter and an ankh counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 02/03.

[Armory] The submitter wishes to release her current device, Argent chapé ployé sable, three seeblätter azure (registered 12/04), when this new one is registered.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Vitasha Ivanova doch'. New name change from Aleksandra Ivanovna Molotova.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will not accept changes. Her current primary name, Aleksandra Ivanovna Molotova (registered 03/97) is to be released upon registration of this new name.

Vitasha is a feminine given name documented from "A Dictionary of Period Russian Names" by Paul Wickenden of Thanet (p.395)

Ivanova doch' is a patronymic meaning "daughter of Ivan". Ivan is found on p.125 of Thanet. The patronymic adheres to one of the many formulae on p.XXV. The source even provides the hypothetical name "Ol'ga Ivanova doch'" as one of the examples.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Pierre de Dieppe. New name and device. Per bend sinister azure and vert, a bend sinister wavy argent between an anchor and a bell Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the unspecified language and/or culture.

Pierre is found in Dauzat (pg. 482, header), undated. It is dated in the article "French Names from Two Thirteenth Century Chronicles" (Arval Benicoeur) at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/crusades/.

de Dieppe is "from Dieppe", a port on the Normandy coast. Columbia Lippincott states (pg. 513) that the town is the site of a 13th C church and a 15th C castle, both of which were heavily damaged during WWII. In addition, it states that under Francis I (1494-1547), Dieppe was a leading port and was known for manufacturing carved ivory. The submitted spelling is also found in Blaeu's Atlas Maior of 1665, both on the main map of the Kingdom of France (orig. vol.VII map I. Taschen repro. p.302-3) and the detail map of the Duchy of Normandy (orig. vol.VII, map 9. Taschen repro. p.318-9). The latter map made its first appearance in Blaeu's 1635 atlas. This dates the spelling solidly within the grey area, and is likely older than that.

[Device] The device conflicts with SCA armory: Per bend sinister azure and vert, a bend sinister wavy argent between two flames Or (Ruadhan Suilghlas, 03/01).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.

Order of Precedence Notes

Sechequr Qara is a name change from Tairdelbach M'Cleri, which isn't listed in the online line OP, but received a Crescent Sword on 10/06/07

Colyn mac Labhruinn has awards listed in the online OP and the updated list to the OP

Muiriath ingean Sheain is listed in the OP as Muiriath mac Labhruinn

Vitasha Ivanova doch' is listed in the OP as Aleksandra Ivanovna Molotova.

Haraldr hlátr drengr is listed in the OP as Haraald Hlatur Dréngur and Harald Hlatur Drengur.

Bibliography

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page