Minutes of the 8 AUGUST 2004 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jan 05 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

In attendance were: Jeanne Marie Crescent, Lachlan Dolphin, Selene Aurum, Su Battlement, Damien von Baden, Catherine de Winter, Cormac Silver Trumpet, Vivienne de Lampérière, Balthazar van der Brugghe, Angus Seraph, Grimr in hafargi, Santin Westmorland of Ravenstonedale and Cassandre Loustaunau.

We have received the money for volunteer hours at GWW VI and VII - my thanks to the heralds who volunteered their time (whether or not their money went the CoH). The check was for $81.31. GWW VIII is coming up soon. Silver Trumpet will certainly appreciate any help he can get staffing consulting tables and camp cries. Miguel will be coordinating field heralds at the various tournaments on Friday. The Known World heraldic soirée will take place on Friday at 9PM at Heralds' Point.

The next heraldry meetings will be: September 12th, October 24th, November 21st, and December 19th. Note that the December meeting has been rescheduled to avoid conflict with QC Archery on December 12th. There will be a road show at Collegium on September 26th. If you can spend some time at that meeting, it will be appreciated.

The tentative schedule for 2005: January 23rd, February 27th, March 13th, (April Crown name/armory submissions due), April 24th, May 15th, June 12th or 19th (whichever on is not QC Equestrian, which is not yet on the kingdom calendar), July 10th, August 7th, September 11th (I know this is against Agincourt Archery but a free Sunday in Sept. is impossible, to find; Sept. Crown name/armory submissions due), October 2nd, November 6th, and December 4th.

Una manvitsbrekka is stepping down from her post as Bellows Pursuivant due to mundane conflicts. Anyone interested in applying to this position should have their resume to Crescent prior to the meeting on September 12. The announcement of the new appointee should take place at that time.

Quarterly reports are expected from all territorial and Crescent staff heralds. All heralds must be warranted every Coronation according to current practice. This includes territorial heralds, Crescent staff heralds and heralds at large.

Crown tournament is approaching. Territorial heralds should inform the populace of their territories Submissions returned by Crescent in August or by Laurel in March, they must be resubmitted in September if the submitter is participating as a fighter or consort in Crown.

Approved submissions will be forwarded to Laurel on the September 30, 2004 Letter of Intent. Su Battlement assisted Crescent and Dolphin in preparing documents this month, allowing us to take time for vacation without causing a delay in the processing of submissions. She has our thanks.

Angels, Barony of

Angels, Barony of the - Laurel Resub Order Name [Order of Apollo]

[Name] The barony's name was "registered at some point". No boxes were checked. Submitted as "the Order of Apollo". The submitters also state, "Apollo, Greek God & patron of all ARTS." Their previous submission, Order of the Halo, was returned by Laurel 06/03 with the comment "No documentation was presented and none was found that halo was used as a word in English in period. Further, no evidence was found that Order of the Halo follows a pattern of period orders and awards as required by RfS III.2.b.II".

Intended as a baronial arts award; this is thematically consistent with the baronial service award, the Order of Athena, which was registered 04/82. This is similar in style to period order names of the form Order of <name>; however, in period the <name> was most often the name of a saint. While we are not aware of period examples of Order of <non-Christian god/dess>, the form Order of <Greek god/dess> is grandfathered to the barony.

The form is signed by the baron, baroness, baronial seneschal, and Seraph (baronial herald). This is to be associated with Gules, a lyre Or within two wings conjoined argent, registered to the barony 10/85.

The definite article "the" is not necessary, doesn't match the existing pattern, and does not appear to be period. Therefore, we are removing it.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

Gwynith of the Red Gryphon - New Device:

Quarterly azure and Or, a gryphon sejant, gules.

[Name] Her name appears on Caid's June 30th LoI.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Macha Drake - Kingdom Resub Device:

Argent, goutty, a dragon azure

[Name] Her name appears on Caid's Jan. 31st LoI.

[Armory] Her previous submission, Argent, a dragon within a bordure azure, was returned by Crescent 02/04 for conflict with Evet Drachenklaue (08/01), Argent, a dragon segreant azure within a bordure sable. Adding the gouttes clears this conflict.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Perrin le Blanc - Kingdom Resub Device:

Quarterly sable and vert, an annulet between four fleurs-de-lys, a bordure counterchanged argent and Or

[Name] His name appears on Caid's Jan. 31st LoI.

[Armory] The submitters previous submission, Per bend sinister sable and vert, a Norse sun cross within a Coptic saltire argent was returned for stylistic problems. Note to submitter, please draw the border thicker in the future.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Darach, Shire of

Alys Chauntrey - New Name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if the name must be changed, she cares most about the meaning; "I like the musical context of 'Chauntrey', since I'm a musicican".

Alys is in Withycombe (s.n. Alice, pp.15-16), dated in this spelling to the 15th C.

Chauntrey is in Bardsley (s.n. Chantrey, p.171), as a surname, with Richard Chauntrey cited in 1465.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Grímr járnhrafn - Kingdom Resub Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes. His previous name submission, Grímr járnsurtr, was returned by Crescent 05/04 for undocumented construction of the byname: essentially it was a combination of two adjectives, rather than the adjective and noun that one expects in Old Norse bynames. The new submission corrects that.

Grímr is found in Geirr Bassi, p.10, as a masculine given name.

járn is found as a byname protheme in Geirr Bassi, p.24, in such constructions as járnauga "iron-eye", járnbúkr "iron-body", járnhauss "iron-skull", and járnsaxa "iron knife." hrafn is found as a byname element in Geiir Bassi, p.23, both as a prefixed byname (Hrafna-) and as an element in bynames (hrafnhauss, "raven skull"). The byname is intended to mean "iron raven".

All of the iron examples provided by the submitter are of the format [iron] + [body part], not [iron] + [bird]. The raven example provided by the submitter is of the format [raven] + [body part] not [raven] + [thing/composition]. After the meeting we contacted Gunnvör sílfrahárr to see if she could provide support for járnhrafn. In part, her reply was:

The problem I see is that the Norse just didn't conceptually combine the ideas of "iron" and "raven" like the submittor wants to do. Looking at kennings in poetry, for instance, shows a lot about how ravens were generally conceptualized. There's a handy online concordance for kennings,so take a look at these:

Kennings meaning "raven" www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/kennings/allraven.html

Kennings including the word <hrafn>, "raven" (see s.v. <hrafn>) www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/kennings/h3voca.html

Ravens and blood and corpses go together. They're part of the aftermath of battle, not a part of the actual battle-clash itself in which iron is involved. I tried to get to a convoluted multi-level kenning that would be járnhrafn as "iron + drinker of blood = sword", but that doesn't happen in Old Norse kennings, either.

Nor, even in poetry, does <járn> get added to animal or bird words:

Kennings including the word <járn>, "iron" (see s.v. <járn>) www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/kennings/ivoca.html

If he has to have both bynames, why doesn't he do something like <Járn-Grímr hrafn> ("Iron-Grim the Raven")? In fact, on p. 12, Geirr Bassi has the masculine personal name <Járngrímr>, so <Járngrímr hrafn> shouldn't be any problem at all.

This name must be returned for lack of the documentation of the construction of the byname.

Name returned for lack of documentation.

Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Mora de Buchanan - Laurel Resub Device:

Per chevron purpure and vert, an owl rising wings displayed argent.

[Name] Her name was registered 08/03.

[Armory] Her first submission, Per chevron purpure and vert, a winged owl's head cabossed and in chief a crescent argent, was returned by Laurel 08/03 as the owl's head was not identifiable. Her second submission, Per chevron purpure and vert, an owl striking guardant to sinister wings displayed argent, was returned by Crescent 04/04 for conflict. Note: this return is missing from the April 2004 minutes.

We note the following three registrations but feel all are clear because of the precedent regarding Birds and Substantial Difference and the noted differences,

The new solution to the problem is to sacrifice some of the theoretical purity of separation of type and posture. Because only eagles among birds are attested as displayed in period, any other bird in a displayed posture will be compared to any bird in a displayed posture usuing [sic] the visual test of rule X.4.e for non-period charges. Thus there will not be a CD between an owl displayed and an eagle displayed, because they are too visually similar, but there will be a CD between an owl displayed and a penguin displayed, because there is still significant visual difference. Additionally any bird other than an eagle in a displayed posture will be considered a "weirdness" [step from standard period practice].

1.Gules, a crow rising, pierced by an arrow, both argent (Jehan de la Marche, 01/73). Also regular-shaped, but this should still be clear with one CD for the changes to the field and another for wings displayed versus wings elevated (presumably). However, considering the date, we felt it was safest to mention it.

2. Per saltire purpure and sable, a Russian firebird volant bendwise argent (Giulietta da Venezia 12/95). One CD for changes to the field, another for change in type of bird (poultry-shaped versus regular-shaped).

3. Sable, a peacock rising, wings elevated and displayed maintaining a sprig of wisteria, all argent (Cristobal degli Glicine che Mangia Uomi 08/88). One CD for changes to the field, another for change in type of bird (poultry-shaped versus regular-shaped).

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Altan Gal - New Name and Device:

Gules, a Chinese dragon passant to sinister between in pale a pair of olive branches in chevron and a pair of olive branches in chevron inverted, a dexter tierce embattled Or.

[Name] The submitter did not check any boxes.

The name is documented from "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names" by Baras-aghur Naran (www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html). Altan is shown as a color (gold or golden). Gal is shown as a common name element form other sources, meaning fire. The author notes "Period names of the n+n pattern are combined of two elements, both of which can stand on their own." This is the pattern of the submitted name. The author also notes "However, there are a few rules that need to be observed when using this name pattern. First, avoid name combinations that do not make common sense together. Next, personal nicknames such as fat, wrinkled, popeye, etc may not be combined at all, nor can the names of clans or tribes. Animal names may be combined with names that are of a different type (ie a name could be constructed of black wolf, but not tiger wolf). As in all instances of rules, there are always exceptions that can be documented. These are general rules that should be followed." The name as submitted follows these rules and should be registerable.

[Armory] The submitter blazoned the field as sanguine. As this tincture is considered post period, it is not registerable. The field is colored such that gules adequately blazons the tincture.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Conchobar mac Lochlainn - New Name and Device:

Vert, a stag's head cabossed and on a chief embattled Or three acorns inverted slipped and leaved vert.

[Name] There is a typographical error on the name form which has the surname as, "mac Lochloinn." All of the other forms have the name spelled as documented, and the consulting herald who was present at the meeting confirmed this. The submitter allows all changes and if the name must be changed, he cares most about the sound.

Both elements are documented from Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's "Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names" (www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/ocm/). Conchobar is found as a masculine given name dated to "882-[15th C]". Conchobar is found in OCM (sn Connor,Conchobar, p.57) Conchobar mac Taidg who died in 882. Mac Lochlainn is found as a patronymic dated to 1166. While the Mari's article (and the corresponding OCM entry, Muirchertach, p. 140) shows Mac Lochlainn, mac Lochlainn should be acceptable as the lower case mac is standard in Irish patronymics.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Conchobar mac Lochlainn - New Badge:

Vert, in bend sinister three acorns inverted slipped and leaved Or.

[Name] His name is submitted above.

[Armory] Note to submitter, please draw the acorns larger.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Conchobar mac Lochlainn and Santin Westmerland of Ravenstonedale - New Household Badge

Per bend sinister sable and Or, a thistle slipped and leaved Or and a rose guled barbed vert

[Name] Conchobar's name is submitted above. Santin's name was registered 04/02. The badge is to be associated with Clann Lochlainn Mor, which is submitted below under Santin Westmerland of Ravenstonedale.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dalla Jade - New Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes to the name, and if the name must be changed she cares most about the sound and language/culture.

Dalla was found as a feminine given name in Geirr Bassi (p.9).

Jade is found in R&W (s.n. Jade, p. 251) with Simon Jade dated to 1258. Norse-English names are registerable but are one-step from period practice or a "weirdness" (q.v. Oddr ölfúss the Tanner, 01/02).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Galti skullcleaver - New Name and Device:

Sable, a skull argent wearing a horned helm Or horned argent.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes to the name, and if the name must be changed he cares most about the meaning and language/culture.

Galti is found in Gierr Bassi (p.21).

skullcleaver is the lingua Anglica form of hausakljúfr, found in Gier Bassi (p.22) meaning "skullcleaver".

[Armory] The device conflicts with (Fieldless) A skull argent, wearing a fool's hat with three tassels gules, erminois and azure (Badge Feliciano Grimaldi, 09/97).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.

Laila Hansdatter - New Name and Device:

Sable, on a fess wavy between three annulets and a crab Or two olive branches stems to center sable.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will allow all changes, and if the name must be changed she cares most about the meaning and sound.

Laila is documented as a feminine given name in Da'ud's "Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices" (www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/arabic-naming2.htm).

The submitter documents Hansdatter from www.reventlow.dk/cgi-bin/igmsrch.cgi, a Danish genealogical database. A number of examples are found in the database, including Maren Hansdatter b. 1560.

There has not been a ruling on Arabic-Danish names, though Arabic-Swiss (q.v. Krista al Kamil, 05/94) and Arabic-Norse (q.v. Eric Ibrahim Mozarab, 02/95) names are not registerable. Arabic-English, Arabic-Turkish, and Arabic-Persian names are weirdnesses (one-step from period practice). No evidence was supplied that an Arabic-Danish name is a reasonable combination (or even one-step from period practice), therefore this is being returned for violating RfS III.2 ("Name Style - Every name as a whole should be compatible with the culture of a single time and place.")

[Armory] Note to submitter, please draw the fess lower. Conflict checking was completed, but it cannot be forwarded without a name.

Name returned for linguistic incompatibility. Device returned for lack of name.

Lijss van den Kerckhove - New Name and Device:

Purpure, a swan naiant wings elevated and addorsed argent and on a chief dovetailed Or two sprigs of rosemary conjoined vert.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept all changes and if the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound.

Lijss is found as a feminine given name in "15th Century Dutch Names" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/dutch15.html).

van den Kerckhove is found as a byname in "Flemish Names from Bruges" by Luana de Grood (www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/byname-list2.html) where it is dated 1400-1550 (meaning it appears in a census).

[Armory] Note to submitter, please draw dovetail deeper.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lijss van den Kerckhove - New Badge:

Purpure, a trumpet and in chief two rosemary branches fesswise, stems to center, Or.

[Name] Her name is submitted above.

[Armory] The "rosemary branches" in chief are not recognizable as drawn, especially combined with the peculiar style of emblazoning on the colored forms (the branches appear to be, perhaps sable fimbriated Or). For this reason, the design must be returned for redraw. In addition, we are uncertain whether the depiction of the trumpet/horn is of a period instrument. If the trumpet is included on the resubmitted badge, the periodness of this depiction will need to be addressed.

Badge returned for redraw.

Santin Westmerland of Ravenstonedale - New Household Name (Clann Lochlainn Mor)

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 04/02. Submitted as Clann a' Lochlainn Mor. She will accept any changes to the household name, and if the name must be changed she cares most about the language/culture (Scots Gaelic). This household name is to be associated with the badge, Per bend sinister sable and Or, a thistle slipped and leaved Or and a rose guled barbed vert, submitted above as a joint badge for Conchobar mac Lochlainn and Santin Westmerland of Ravenstonedale.

The submitter documents the name from a booklet that accompanies a clan map of Scotland (www.gwp.enta.net/scothist.htm#clans) where Lachlan Mor is dated to 13th century.

Sharon Krossa's article "Medieval Gaelic Clan, Household, and Other Group Names" (www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/households.shtml) notes that "Most commonly the name used for the eponymous clan ancestor was his given name only, but sometimes his simple patronymic byname only or his given name plus descriptive byname would be used." She includes the example "Clann Eoin Duibh, a late medieval Scottish Gaelic clan named after a man with the given name plus descriptive byname Eoin Dubh." The author also notes "After clann the clan ancestor's name is lenited unless his name starts with D, T, L, N, or R."

Lochlainn is found in OCM (p.123) meaning probably "Viking", and dates to the Early Middle Ages.

Mór is found in "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Masculine Descriptive Bynames" by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames), where it is glossed as big/great.

Submitted as Clann a' Lochlainn Mor, the grammatically correct form appears to be Clann Lochlainn Mor (dropping the a'). Gaelic names may be registered with or without the accent, therefore we have left Mor as submitted.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Þórunn the wise - New Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will allow all changes, and if the name must be changed she cares more about the sound and language/culture.

Þórunn, found as a feminine given name in Gierr Bassi (p.16).

the wise is the lingua Anglica translation of in spaka, found in Gierr Bassi (p.28).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Wulfgar gerpir - New Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes to the name, and if the name must be changed he cares most about the sound and language/culture.

Wulfgar appears as a witness on a charter from King Athelstan to the church of St Peter, York: grant of land at Amounderness, Lancs. (dated 930) found at www.anglo-saxons.net/hwaet/?do=get&type=charter&id=407. It appears to be an accurate transliteration of the forms from the document. It is also found in Searle (s.n. Wulfgar, p.507), with dates from ninth and tenth centuries.

gerpir is found in Geirr Bassi (p.21).

Anglo-Saxon/Norse is registerable as a weirdness (q.v. Ethelfleda Daviðsdottir, 12/01).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Cormac Mór - New Household Name (Poore House)

[Name] His name was registered 02/03. The submitter will allow no changes to the name (except as explicitly allowed); he cares most about the meaning "poor". He will not accept changing the order of the name (to designator first). The submitter will accept any variations in spelling for the surname (Poore) as listed in either Bardsley or R&W, including the "Power" variations under the Poor header in R&W, if necessary. Submitter will accept "Poore Manor" or "Poore Palace", also Cottage, Hut, et. al. for example, as variants in the designator, but much prefers "House".

Poore is documented as a surname in Bardesley (s.n. Poore, Poor, p.615) with John Poor married 1580.

We note that the usual format for household names incorporating a surname take the format House [surname] rather than [surname] house.

This clearly is a joke name (c.f. Miles Long and Drewe Steel), and should be registerable so long as it is not determined to be obtrusively modern. While it made a number of us twitch, we feel that it does not drag us into the modern age.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Cormac Mór - Laurel Resub Badge:

Per bend Or and argent

[Name] His name was registered 02/03.

[Armory] His previous submission, Quarterly Or and argent, was returned by Laurel 12/03 for conflict.

Badge approved and forward to Laurel.

Patricia de Lyon - New Device:

Gules, a lion's head caboshed and a bordure argent.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 03/04.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Starkhafn, Barony of

Lia da Firenze - New Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name authentic for 14th-16th century Italian. She will accept all changes and the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound.

Lia appears once in Arval Benicoeur's "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427" (www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto).

da Firenze is found in "Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names" by Arval Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek (www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14), where it appears as a locative surname meaning "from Florence". Submitted as Da Firenze we have changed the locative to match the documented form, da Firenze.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

OP Notes

None.

Bibliography

Arval Benicoeur. "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427", www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto.

Arval Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek. "Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names", www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14

Aryanhwy merch Catmael. "15th Century Dutch Names", www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/dutch15.html.

Bardsley, Charles. W. A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames. London, 1901; Ramsbury, Wiltshire: Heraldry Today. Reprint ed.: 1988.

Baras-aghur Naran. "On the Documentation and Construction of Period Mongolian Names", www.s-gabriel.org/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html.

Da'ud ibn Auda. "Period Arabic Names and Naming Practices", www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/arabic-naming2.htm.

de Grood, Luana. "Flemish Names from Bruges", www.s-gabriel.org/docs/bruges/byname-list2.html.

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Olney, MD: Studia Marklandica, 1977. [Geirr Bassi]

Krossa, Sharon. "Medieval Gaelic Clan, Household, and Other Group Names" (updated 23 Aug 2002), www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/households.shtml

Mari Elspeth nic Bryan. "Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names", www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/ocm.

Mari Elspeth nic Bryan. "Index of Names in Irish Annals: Masculine Descriptive Bynames", www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames.

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995.

[R&W]Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

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