Minutes of the 4 May 2003 Meeting
[Note: These submissions appear on the Sep 03 LoAR]
Notes and Announcements
The next heraldry meetings will be: June 15th, July 13th, August 3rd, and
September 14th.
In attendance are: Jeanne Marie Crescent, Lachlan Dolphin,
Bruce Oak Leaf, Eirikr Gold Phoenix, Elisabeth Goodchilde,
Kean Trident, Kurt von Arriksleva, Lara Cheri, Rhorek
Chevron, Selene Sable Fret, Steffen von Ostdorf, Stephania
Gold Forset, Su Battlement, Thomas Brownwell, Typhainne
d'Alixandre, Umberto Lotovico.
For those that are not aware of the recent changes in the CoH: Jeanne Marie
Lacroix stepped up as Crescent at Crown Tourney, Lachlan of Cromarty is now
Dolphin, Selene Colfox is sending letters to submitters informing them of
Laurel's decision regarding their submissions, and Su of the Silver Horn is
regent for the heraldry track at Collegium Caidis.
The New Zealand territories will become part of Lochac next weekend, at
Lochac's Crown Tourney. From Benedict of Askerigg, Blue Lymphad -
"... my sincere gratitude and thanks to all the members of the Caidan
college of heralds for the many times they have assisted and corrected and
advised me on my journey from novice cornet three years ago, to Blue Lymphad
Pursuivant that I am now. In particular I would thank Dietmar Herald, Master
James and Jeanne Marie Crescent for their tutilage and generosity with time and
books."
If your group has a presentation for Coronation/QC please contact Crescent
() by May 26th so it
can be added to the schedule. If your group has a presentation for Festival of
the Rose, please let Crescent know at least a week in advance.
The January LoAR had several items of interest:
1. Request for reconsideration - In summary, if you have a client who made a
request for authenticity and is unhappy with the changes
Laurel (or Pelican) made they can request reconsideration. All requests must
either: (a) be supported by new documentation supporting the original name as
complying with the requested authenticity, (b) submit a timely request for a
name based on information provided in Laurel's decision, or (c) include a
request that the original name be considered with no request for authenticity.
Such reconsideration may be considered with the standards in effect at the time
of the request. For purposes of fees, a request for reconsideration is
considered a resubmission. Caid currently does not charge for resubmissions
made within a year of notification to the client.
2. Request for comment on major changes to the Glossary of Terms.
2. Request for comment on "Beyond the Encyclopedia", dealing with
mundane name conflicts.
3. Request for comment on proposed changes to RfS X.4.j - changes to tertiary
charges.
See the LoAR (which is available on-line) for complete details. If you are
interested in commenting, please provide the comments to Crescent by May
26th for the May LoC or the June CoH meeting for the June LoC.
Forwarded submissions will appear on the May 28, 2003 Caidan Letter of
Intent.
Calafia, Barony of
Anne du Beausoleil - New Name and Device:
Per pale azure and Or, a sun counterchanged
She will not accept major changes and wishes a female name.
Anne is found in Dauzet, Noms et prénoms (p 10) where it is
described as a biblical name.
Beausoliel is found in Morlet, Noms de Familille (sn Beausoliel, p.
89) which states, "n. topogr. Et n. de liew-dit assez fréquent
(midi) qui a désigné un lieu, une terre exposée au
soleil." (Fairly common locative designating open land, exposed to the
sun)
Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Jordan of Marlborough - New Device:
Per chevron gules and sable.
His name appears on Caid's October 1st LoI. His original device
was returned for conflict against Geoffrey FitzDavid, Per chevron gules and
chevronelly Or and sable. This is a complete redesign.
Conflict found: Eliza O'Donegan, Per chevron vert and sable. Using a
per chevron inverted field division or a complex line of division would clear
this conflict.
Device returned for conflict.
David ui Naill - New Name and Device
Vert, a hand appaumy within two lizards in annulo argent.
The name is identical to the submitter's mundane name, David O'Neal. We must
return this name for conflict. We recommend that the submitter use mac
Naill if he wishes to use a name that is similar to his mundane
name.
Name returned for conflict. Device pended (without conflict check)
for lack of name.
Michael Trahy - New Name and Device:
Per bend Or and sable, a bend gules ermined Or between a Cornish chough
proper and a tower Or.
The submitter will allow all changes. He desires a masculine name, and cares
most about the sound.
The name Michael is found in Withycombe, pg. 218, dated to
1196.
We found Trahy in MacLysacht, (sn (O)
Trehy, p. 289), dated to the early 1600's. Submitted as
Michael Trahey. We have changed the spelling to conform
to the documentation.
The color copied emblazons had a bend which was distinctly not
gules. It had to be colored red before being forwarded. Submitters are reminded
to avoid using color copies or printouts on their submission forms.
Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and
forwarded to Laurel.
Poll na Gainmhe, Canton of (Calafia)
Hans Schneckenberger - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale azure and Or, two castles counterchanged and on a chief vert an
arrow Or.
His name appears on Caid's November 10th LoI (redated by Laurel to
December 3rd). His previous submission, Per pale gules and Or,
two castles counterchanged, was returned by Crescent in October 2002 for
conflict. This is a substantial redesign.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Darach, Shire of
Lorenz Wieland - New Device:
Azure, a winged bottle bendwise sinister between in pall three forks tines
to center argent.
His name appears on Caid's November 10th LoI (redated by Laurel to
December 3rd).
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
William Hethfeld - New Name and Device:
Sable, an armored wolf statant contourny ululant argent.
Submitted as William Heatherfield.
The submitter desires a masculine name, has requested authenticity for 15th
Century English and permits minor changes. If the name must be changed, he
cares most about the language/culture.
We found William in Withycombe, p.293, introduced to England
the 11th C. Reaney & Wilson date it in this spelling to 1299,
under the header Williams.
We have been unable to find the submitted spelling in any form, and note that
under the header Heather, Ekwall states that
"heather, found from 1335 in OED, chiefly in the north, is
rare in pl.ns. We are changing the name to conform to the documented
form Hethfeld, found under the header
Heathfield in Ekwall, dated to 1275, which means, "Open
land overgrown with heather".
The device conflicts with Haroun ibn al'Dhi'b al-Abyadh, Sable a wolf
passant to sinister argent, in base a simitar fesswise reversed Or and
Guillaume le Chien Blanc Sable a samoyed dog counterstatant proper and a
chief argent.
Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for
conflict.
Darton, Shire of
Alys de Wilton - New Badge:
(Fieldless) An attire sable
Her name appears on Caid's October 1st LoI.
Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel
Bernard Stirling - New Name:
The submitter has checked no boxes.
Bernard is found in Withycombe 3rd ed (sn
Bernard, p. 48) dated to 1273.
Reaney & Wilson (sn Stirling, p. 428) have Gilbert
Stirling 1269 and John Stirling 1327.
Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Francesca Martini - New Name and Device:
Per fess indented and per pale azure and ermine
The submitter is interested in a feminine name. No other boxes are
marked.
Francesca is found 34 times among the 1562 women listed in
Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427 by
Arval Benicoeur
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/).
We also found it in de Felice Nomi (sn Fancesco, p. 175) where is listed as a
feminine form. The masculine form is listed as a personal name in the 11th and
13th centuries; however, the feminine form is apparently undated.
In FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Tratte of Office Holders
1282-1532 edited by David Herlihy, R. Burr Litchfield, Anthony Molho, and
Roberto Barducci
(http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte),
Martini occurs 242 times in the sub-page "List of
Surnames (Surnami) in the Tre Maggiori with the Number of Records for
Each"
(http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/).
We have also found the surname Martini as a header spelling in
De Felice Cognomi, p. 163.
Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Gyldenholt, Barony of
Ceara ingen Conaill - New Badge:
Vert, a compass rose argent
Her name was registered 01/2000
This design conflicts with Alexandre sur la Mer, Azure a compass rose
argent.
Badge returned for conflict.
Max Erich von Baden - New Device
Per pale gules and sable, two flamberges in saltire Or surmounted by a
skull argent.
His name appears Caid's April 30, 2003 LoI.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Morgan Mac Máeláin - Laurel Resub Device:
Per bend argent and Or, a hawk striking sable tailed and a triquetra
gules.
The submitter's name was registered by Laurel in April 2002. His original
device design, Ermine, a hawk striking wings displayed sable tailed and in
chief three triquetras gules was returned by Laurel in September 2002 due
to conflict. This is a substantial redesign.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Rosa Maria de Cosenza - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale argent and vert, a cross flory and on a chief gules three roses
argent barbed vert.
Her name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI. Her original device
design was returned by Crescent in April 2003 for redraw. This redesign fixes
the reasons for that return.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Rosa Maria de Cosenza - New Badge:
[Fieldless] In pale, a rose gules conjoined to a cross flory Or.
Her name appears on Caid's April 30, 2003 LoI.
This design has insufficient overlap to be considered appropriate conjoining
for a fieldless badge. Several redesigns were suggested with the rose entirely
covering the fleur-de-lys on one of the cross' limbs.
Badge returned for redraw.
Steffen von Ostdorf - Resub Kingdom Device:
Gyronny Or and sable, a lion reguardant and in sinister canton a cross
flory gules.
His name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI, incorrectly spelled as
"Steffan". The submitter's original design, Gyronny sable
and gules, a lion rampant regardant and in sinister canton a cross fleury
Or was returned by Crescent in April 2003 for redraw. This redesign fixes
the reasons for that return.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Heatherwyne, Shire of
Brian McRay - New Device:
Per pale argent and vert, a thistle and a drawn bow with a nocked arrow
reversed counterchanged, on a chief gules three goblets Or.
His name was registered 09/02.
According to precedent, this is not slot machine:
[considering a strung bow and arrow along with another
charge] the question was raised as to whether or not this is considered slot
machine since it has three dissimilar charges in one group. While it is true
that it has three charges, when a bow and arrow are in their standard, expected
position they are considered one charge, just like a sword in a scabbard is
considered one charge. It is only when they are separated, or put into non
standard positions for their normal use, such as being crossed in saltire, that
they become two separate charges. (Innogen Mac Leod, 4/99 p. 6)
Also, there is some question whether this exceeds the rule of thumb for
complexity. If the bow and arrow are considered one charge for this rule as
well, then the complexity count is eight, making this design barely
registerable.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Wylds, College of the (Lyondemere)
Caitilin inghean Eoin - New Name and Device:
Azure, in pall three natural dolphins embowed tails to center within a
bordure argent.
The submitter is interested in a feminine name. If the name must be changed,
she cares most about the sound, and possibly the language/culture. She
indicates an interest in having her name be authentic for "Irish",
but does not request that it be made so. She will not accept major changes.
All elements can be found in "Index of Names in Irish Anals" by
Kathleen O'Brien. Caitilin is dated to 1486
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Caitilin.shtml).
inghean is dated to 1411 (same URL).
Eoin is dated to 1446 on the same website
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Eoin.shtml).
We note that both names have forms with and without accent marks. The
submitter has chosen to use the unaccented forms. Originally submitted as
Caitilin Inghean Eoin. We have changed the capitalization to match
documented forms.
Possible conflict found: Mikhail the Varangianin (badge, Nov 1993 via
Atenveldt) Azure, three drinking horns interlaced in a triskelion, pierced
by their own tips within a bordure argent. If this design is considered to
contain a triskelion of natural dolphins, then these designs probably conflict.
If these dolphins are in pall, then the designs are probably clear. We are
pending this item to consult with the client whether she wishes to proceed, or
make changes to clearly avoid the conflict.
Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device pended to
consult with client.
Southron Gaard, Barony of
Griffin de Novum Castrum - New Name and Device:
Argent, in pale a griffin and a castle vert between two pallets
sable.
Submitted as Gryphon de Nova
Castria.
Please contact submitter in Southron Gaard to approve these changes.
The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will not accept major
changes. If the name must be changed he cares most about the sound. He requests
a name authentic for 11th-13th century.
Gryphon is asserted to be a derivative of Griffin (Old Welsh
or Cornish) - meaning "long nose". Morgan & Morgan's Welsh
surnames lists on page 102 the form Griffin, used extensively
in the medieval period as an anglicized and Latinized version of the given name
Gruffydd. We have not found the submitted spelling, so we are changing it to
conform to our sources.
de is the French (Norman) and the Latin preposition
"of".
Nova Castria is Latin for "New Castle" and is the
original name of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which was named after the "new
style" motte and bailey castle built there after the Norman invasion.
Reaney & Wilson (sn Newcastle, p. 321) have Geoffrey de Newcastle dated
1246-7. We did not find this spelling. Ekwall (sn Newcastle upon
Tyne, p. 339) lists the latinate versions Novum
Castellum (1130), and Novum Castrum (1254). We could
not find a feminine form similar to the submitted, so we are changing it to the
documentable masculine Latin form.
The device has two unidentifiable charges on it. We recommend thatr submitter
make the pallets much smaller, spread further apart, and significantly enlarge
the two vert charges. We also believe that if the submitter made the background
paly argent and sable, then the two charges could be enlarged and placed over
the pallets.
Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for
redraw.
Héloïse de Mont Saint Michel - New Name and
Device:
Per chevron vert and gules, a chevron between two fleurs-de-lys and an
eagle Or.
The submitter is interested in a feminine name that is authentic for French.
she will allow all changes. The scanned forms did not match the official
submission forms. New forms were created at the meeting. Original forms and new
forms will be sent to Laurel.
Héloïse - refer Abélard and
Héloïse. Webster's Biographical shows this spelling under the
header Abélard, dated to 12th C.
de French locative marker
Mont Saint Michel is documented from
http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Western_Europe/France/france2.htm
where it states "Le Mont-Saint-Michel ... islet in northwestern France, in
the Gulf of Saint-Malo, connected by a causeway with the mainland." And
"The first chapel on this site was founded in 708 ... the Abbey takes the
name of Mont saint Michel. ... During the Hundred years War the fortifications
of Mont St. Michel were reinforced (1420) ... the village that grew up and
around the abbey lies huddled within the fortifications and includes a
Romanesque parish church, remodeled in the 15th century."
Columbia-Lippincott indicates that the abbey was formed in 706, and that six
remaining abbatial buildings on the isle were built in the 13th C.
We note that the submitter has not included any hyphens, so we have left them
out. While all of our book references show the name with the hyphens, it is our
understanding that this is a modern convention and that the submitted form is
acceptable within period.
Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Starkhafn, Barony of
Dmitrii Seryi - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale sable and azure, a sword proper between two wolf's jambs couped
argent.
His name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI. His previous
submission, Sable, a sword argent hilted and pummeled Or handled azure,
overall a wolf's jamb sable, was returned by Crescent for lack of
contrast. This design fixes these problems.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Katharine de Mirabeau - New Device:
Purpure, on a pale sable fimbriated four Bowen crosses Or.
Her name appears on Caid's March 1st LoI.
Device conflicts with Catherine de Montlhéry, Purpure, on a pale
sable fimbriated, three feathers bendwise sinister argent.
Device returned for conflict.
Roch Sanglier - New Device:
Per saltire sable and purpure, a fleur-de-lys between four frets conjoined
in fret Or, the interior of the mascles counterchanged, all within a bordure
Or.
His name appears on Caid's March 1st LoI.
Returned as the blazon does not adequately describe the emblazon, in
particular the interiors of the mascles are counterchanged of the field giving
color on color. Please recommend to the submitter to avoid using an ink jet
printer for their resubmission.
Device returned for redraw.
Bibliography
Arval Benicoeur. "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of
Florence of 1427."
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/).
Castles of the World. "Mont Saint Michael."
(http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Western_Europe/France/france2.htm).
Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et
Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and
augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.
Dauzat, Albert and Rostaing, Ch. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms
de Lieux de la France. 2nd ed. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1963.
Guénégaud, Paris.
De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo
Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.
De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori
Editore. Milan, 1986.
Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names.
4th ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1987.
Herlihy, David; Litchfield, R. Burr; Molho, Anthony; Barducci, Roberto
editors. "FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Tratte of Office
Holders 1282-1532."
(http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte).
Morgan, T. J., and Morgan, Prys. Welsh Surnames. Cardiff: University
of Wales Press, 1985.
O'Brien, Kathleen. "Index of Names in Irish Anals"
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Caitilin.shtml).
Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames
Oxford: Oxford University Press, 3rd ed. 1995.
Seltzer, L. E., ed. The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World.
Morningside Heights, NY: Columbia University Press, 1952.
Webster's Biographical Dictionary, First Edition. G & C Mirriam
Co. Publishers, Springfield, Mass. (1951)
Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names.
Oxford: Oxford University Press 3rd ed. 1977.
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