Minutes of the December 14, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting
Meeting commenced at 11:02 AM.
Attendance: Su Crescent, Illuminada Dolphin, Hrorek Chevron, Eridana Trident, Damien Sable Fret, Cormac Battlement, Thomas Quatrefoil, John ap Griffin, Dietmar von Straubing, Brynhildr kjölfari.
Upcoming meetings are: January 25, February 22, March 22, and April 26.
This is our first meeting at Su’s house so there needs to be a review of the Rules of the House:
The latest LoAR is up and available on the Web. There is a discussion on the difference between wolves’ heads and dogs’ heads.
Crescent is working on getting more information online, including Minutes, Herald’s Handbook, and revised Kingdom ceremonies with full text of promissories.
Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the February 12, 2009 Letter of Intent.
Brynhildr kjölfari. New Name and Device. Azure, on a cross sable fimbriated a lion passant between four fleurs-de-lis points outward Or.
[Name] Submitted as Brynhildr Kjölfari. Byname was changed to lower case initial, by precedent from Oct 2002 LoAR, “When registering transliteration of non-Roman alphabets (including Norse runes), we register the name using modern transliterations standards. We will also register period transliteration standards where such exist. In the case of Old Norse, there are period manuscripts of sagas and other works that are rendered using the Roman alphabet. From these, we can determine that the period standard was to transliterate descriptive bynames in lowercase.” (See the cover letter for the April 2002 LoAR for more information.) The modern transliteration standard, both in Europe and the U.S., is to transliterate descriptive bynames in lowercase.
The submitter is interested in a feminine name, will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made is most interested in the unspecified meaning and language/culture.
Brynhildr is found in St Gabriel Report 2604, which suggests that Brynhildr is an Old Norse name.
kjölfari is found in “Viking Bynames found in Landnamabok” by Aryanhwy merch Catmael where it glosses as keel-traveler with one citation. The byname was changed to lower-case per Geirr Bassi’s example (all patronymics are capitalized, all descriptors are lower-case). The submitter was present and approved the change.
[Armory] No conflicts found with device.
Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Erycha von Scotte. New Name.
[Name] Erica – according to the submitter, is found in Yonge, History of Christian Names. The college was unable to locate their copy to verify this information. In an effort to find a suggestion for this submitter, the college found:
Ereche is found in Bahlow p. 106 Ericke or Ehrecke are both found in Bahlow.
Von – Dictionary of Surnames, Hanks and Hodges
Schött(e), Schott(e) used in the middle ages for peddlars who traveled around the country, because many of whom were originally from Scotland. (Without von) Also found Scott(e)
From Brechenmacher. Vol. II p. 360 Johanne Scotus the old Scotus that one sometimes finds in old Europe comes from Scots, for example, Johanne Scotus in 11th cent. There was a Michael Scotus in 1232, Johannus duns Scotus was born 1266 in Scotland, dies 1307 in Cologne.
The college believes that Erica Soctus, might be plausible, as would Erica Schotte/Scotte. However, because this would constitute a major change, we are returning this to the submitter for further consultation.
Name returned for lack of documentation.
Hugh de Greylonde New Name.
[Name] Submitter desires a masculine name. No other preferences are indicated.
Hugh is found in Withycombe, pg. 157, dated to 1273. The name is already common in the 12th C, but became still more popular in the following century in honour of St. Hugh, Bishop of Lincoln (1135-1200), who was venerated in the North much as St. Thomas was in the South. Later, Little St. Hugh of Lincoln (1246?-55), a child supposed to have been martyred by the Jews, added to the popularity of the name.
An Index to the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland, England by Karen Larsdatter (Karen Harris) lists Hugh with 74 citations. http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm
de Greylonde is found in Index of Names in the 1292 Subsidy Roll of London: Surnames by Aryanhwy merch Catmael with one citation. www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/surlondon1292.html
Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Philip Berenger de Greylonde. New Name.
[Name] Submitter desires a masculine name. No other preferences are indicated.
Philip is found in Masculine Given Names Found in the 1296 Lay Subsidy Rolls for Rutland by Karen Larsdatter (Karen Harris) with 5 citations. http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/Rutland/given-masc-alpha.htm
Berenger is found in Withycombe, pg 47, s.n. Berengerius occurs in DB and it was in fairly common use throughout the 12th and 13th C. Berenger is dated to 1201. The name dies out in general use after the 14th C. Also in R&W p. 40-41, s.n. Berenger Berenger Faber 1219, John Berenger 1271.
de Greylonde is found in Index of Names in the 1292 Subsidy Roll of London: Surnames by Aryanhwy merch Catmael with one citation. www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/english/surlondon1292.htmlName approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Cassandra Zoë Paganal. Laurel Resubmission Device: Sable, a winged bear rampant reguardant wings elevated and displayed in chief a compass star argent.
[Name] Registered 08/99.
[Armory] This is in fact a resubmission of a resubmission. The original submission: Azure, a silkie Or headed argent, in chief on three flames Or three gouts azure was returned by Laurel 08/99,
Gouttes on flames are inherently unidentifiable. "The gout is unrecognizable as such on the flames, appearing to be a part of the flames rather than a separate charge." (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR August 1994, p. 16)
A complete redesign: Sable, a winged bear rampant regardant wings displayed and in chief a compass star argent, was returned on the July 2007 LOAR:
This device is returned for redraw. RfS VIII.3 requires that all elements be identifiable; as the bear is not identifiable, this must be returned. If the bear's head were drawn so that it didn't overlap the wings it would greatly aid in identifiability. The compass star also needs to be redrawn to clearly show the four lesser points.
The submitter has addressed the points of the return.Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Dalphina Delacroix. Kingdom Resubmission Device: Per pale argent and sable, a natural tiger statant contourny striped counterchanged.
[Name] Submitted on the Caidan 06/27/08 LoI.
[Armory] The original submission Per pale sable and argent, a natural tiger statant marked counterchanged was returned Oct 08 Caid meeting “This conflicts with Malesius O'Brien (03/05), Per pale sable and argent, in pale three lions passant counterchanged, There is a single CD for the number of cats. There is no CD for the marking.”
By reversing the colors, the submitter has added a second CD for the color of the field. No conflicts found.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel. For some reason, this device was not included on the 02/12/09 LoI, but was included on the 03/31/09 LoI
Caid, Kingdom of. Kingdom resubmission order name and badge. Golden Lance of Caid, Order of the and Azure, a crescent argent and overall a lance palewise Or, a bordure embattled argent.
[Name] Kingdom name registered 02/75. This badge is to be associated with the name Golden Lance of Caid, Order of the. Golden Lance of Ansteorra, Order of was registered 07/05, and the Golden Lance of Trimaris, Order of the, was registered 02/06. Caid will be joining these two kingdoms in The Golden Lance Treaty at the upcoming Gulf Wars, which provides permission to conflict. We have requested individual permissions to conflict from the two kingdoms above, so that we can get the submissions going sooner rather than later, but have yet to receive them.
All portions of this name have been previously registered.
[Armory] The badge was returned for redraw at the November 2008 meeting, “The bottom portion of the lance bell needs to be more distinct from the bottom of the crescent with the bell more flared and the crescent a bit smaller. The complete portion of the bordure, rather than the embattlement, also needs to be drawn wider."
This resubmission addresses these issues.
Order Name and Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Caid, Kingdom of. Kingdom resubmission order name and badge. Aurora Caidis, Order of the, and Azure, three piles wavy in point Or.
[Name] Kingdom name registered 02/75. Originally submitted as Golden Flame, Order of the. This was found to have a direct conflict already in submission. This is a complete change of name.
Aurora was the Roman goddess of the Dawn, and is used to describe any light in the night sky before the sun rises (e.g. aurora borealis). The OED (pg. 567), defines it as “The rising light of the morning; the dawn,” dated from 1483.
Caidis This name is grandfathered to the Kingdom, and was registered to the kingdom as part of the household name Collegium Caidis registered 03/05 and as an award Lux Caidis registered 03/94.
[Armory] The original badge, Azure, a flame Or issuant from a crescent all within a border embattled argent is withdrawn to allow submission of this redesign.
This should not conflict with Azure, three piles wavy in point argent, overall a sea-lion erect guardant vert, headed Or, maintaining in both forearms a wand sable surmounted by an estoile of five points gules.( Aramé merch Emrys, 08/82) with one CD for the change from argent to Or, and a second CD for the overall sea-lion.
Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel. This badge was withdrawn by the submitter as the result of a conversation on 4/25/09.
Carina de Jean le Noir. New name and device. Azure, a torch argent flamed Or between the wings of a vol argent.
[Name] Submitted as Carina de Jean les Noir. The submitter is interested in a feminine name, will allow minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, cares most about the meaning “Carina, daughter of Jean the Black.”
Carina is the name of a female saint who was martyred in 360 with her husband, Melasippus and her son was forced to watch the torture and then beheaded in Ancyra, Turkey. Spelling Karina http://www.antiochian.org/node/16874 (copy included). Carina is also listed in DeFelice pg 99- name after St Carina, “Santa Carina martire a Ancira in Galazia sotto l’imperatore Giuliano l’Apostata (e forse, nel maschile, del Beato Carinode Balsamo, localita presso Milano, morto nel 1223.” (translated using Google: Saint Carina martyr at Ancyra in Galatia under the Emperor Julian the Apostate and perhaps, in the male of the Blessed Carinode Balsamo, located in Milan, who died in 1223
de is attested to mean the “daughter of”, but our research indicates that it actually means “in the service of” or “from the household of”.
Jean is found asJean de Chanevière in “An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris”by Colm Dubh, at http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html
le Noir is found as Evrart le Noir, mercier and Marie la noire in “An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris” by Colm Dubh, at http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html.Le Noir is dated to 1421 in “French Surnames from Paris, 1421, 1423, 1438”, by Aryanhwy merch Catmael, at http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html. We have changed the plural article “les” to the singular “le” to match the rest of the name, since both Jean and Noir are singular.
This is an Italian given name with a French patronymic, which is one step from period practice.
[Armory] We found two close arms for which we request a visual check. The first is (Fieldless) A winged torch, wings elevated and addorsed argent (Adin Tinkar, July ’91). The second is Azure, a winged torch argent enflamed proper within a bordure argent (Wulfgar Brandbeorn, Feb ’89). This submission has sufficient difference from both pieces of armory with at least two CDs (difference in number of primary charges, difference in field, addition of bordure), but if either prior submission is too similar in appearance to the current submission, then it may be in conflict.
Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Ceolwynn æt Galtris. New Device. Per fess gules and azure, in base a demi-sun Or issuant from the line of division.
[Name] Submitter’s name was on the June 27, 2008 Caid LoI.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Éadaoin inghen Mhuircheartaigh. Laurel resub device. Azure, a harp Or stringed argent, a chief Or and a ford proper .
[Name] Registered May 2008.
[Armory] Originally submitted as Azure, a harp reversed Or stringed argent and a ford proper, this was returned on the July 08 LoAR: “This device is returned for conflict with Ireland, Azure, a harp Or stringed argent. There is not a CD for reversing a harp. The non-musician, non-herald at the decision meeting said he was unable to distinguish the submitted harp from Ireland's at any distance.”
This submission adds a chief, which supplies the additional CD needed to clear this original conflict.
Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Haraldr hlátr-mildr Laurel Resubmission of name
[Name] Originally submitted as Haraldr hlátr drengr, it was returned on theMay 08 LoAR,
The byname of this name is not properly formed. The submitter intended a byname meaning "the laughing man". No documentation was submitted and none found to suggest Old Norse formed descriptive bynames of the form [noun describing action] + "man". Palimpsest explains and offers an alternative term with the desired meaning:<Is there evidence of bynames formed using a structure like <laughter-man>? I sure haven't seen any. Without that evidence, I don't see how a byname using <X-drengr> in any form can be registered.On the other hand, Zoega (as cited above), gives an adjectival word <hlátr-mildr> "prone to laughter." It's in Cleasby-Vigfusson as well. It seems to have affected Middle English, as the Middle English Dictionary cites a word <unlaughtermilde> (no really) 'sober, not prone to laughter' derived from it. We would change the name to that form, but the submitter will not accept major changes. We are, therefore, forced to return the name.
The submitter is accepting Laurel’s recommendation of the name Haraldr hlátr-mildr with thanks.
Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Seraphina Lilje. Kingdom resub device. Per saltire purpure and sable, a lily blossom and on a bordure argent three lily blossoms purpure.
[Name] On Caid LoI December 31, 2008
[Armory] Originally submitted as Per saltire purpure and sable, a lily blossom and a bordure argent at the Oct 08 Caidan meeting, “This conflicts with Pean, a lily, slipped and leaved, within a bordure argent (Francesco Alberti, 06/88). There is a CD for changes to the field. In general there is no difference for adding or removing slipping and leaving. Precedent supports this for lilies:
Renate Hildegerter. Device. Azure, a lily blossom argent within a bordure wavy Or. Conflict with Aultain Moire O'Linnala ("Azure, a bar wavy Or surmounted by an arum lily argent.") and Kay Delafleur ("Azure, an Easter lily flower, leaved and slipped, proper, fimbriated Or."). In the former case, the only significant change visually is the substitution of a bordure wavy Or for the bar wavy Or: no additional difference for position should be derived since the position is intrinsic to the difference in kind between a bar and a bordure. In the latter case, the differences in the lilies, even counting the fimbriation, do not amount to a clear major point of difference. (In answer to the inevitable question: both of these submissions were registered at Heraldicon in August, 1979, and cross checking among submissions considered there was cursory to non-existent.) [11/1988]We cannot recognize the three lilies that were added to the bordure, and must return it for a re-draw. No conflicts found.
Device returned for redraw.
Tairdelbach Clannach- Laurel Change of Holding Name.
[Name] Originally submitted as Timothy the Procrastinator on the Caidan 07/26/06 LoI, the holding name Timothy of Calafia was registered 11/06 and is to be released if this submission is registered. The submitter desires a masculine name, will allow all changes, and cares about the meaning of the surname Clannach meaning ‘children’.
Tairdelbach is found in OCM page 169, header and ‘Index of Names in Irish Annals: Tairdelbach / Toirdhealbhach’ by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien), http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Toirdhealbhach.shtml (copy included). Listed as Middle Irish Gaelic (c900-c1200) in the nominative form: Tairdelbach. Raw data from Chronicon Scotorum by Gearóid Mac Niocaill and William M. Hennessy, Annal CS1115 found at http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100016/text138.html: Tairdelbach ua Conchobuir and Tairdelbach son of Ruaidrí ua Conchobuir appear to be the same individual. (copy included)
Clannach is found in ‘Index of Names in Irish Annals: Descriptive Bynames: Clannach’ by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Clannach.shtml (copy included). A single entry appears with this name dated to 1269: Domhnall Clannach Mac Giolla Patraig meaning children(ish), having many children.
Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Thea Gabrielle Northernridge. Laurel resubmission badge. (Fieldless) On a hand of Fatima Or, a Star of David purpure.
[Name] The submitter's name was registered 03/00.
[Armory] The submitter’s prior submission (Fieldless) On a hand of Fatima Or, an eye azure was returned at the Caidan 10/08 meeting for conflict, “This resubmission is identical to her previous submission, so does not address the reason for previous return, which was:.
The submitter's previous design, (Fieldless) On a hand of Fatima Or, an eye azure was returned by Laurel 11/06 for conflict the device of Geva de Lile, Azure, on a dexter hand apaumy Or a goutte azure. The LoAR noted "There is a CD for fieldlessness, but nothing for the type of hand. As a hand of Fatima is not simple enough to void, RfS X.4.j.ii does not apply and there is nothing for changing the type only of the tertiary charge."This submission adds a CD by changing both the type and tincture of the tertiary charge.
Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.
Lyon of Darkwater. Name and device. Per pale gules and azure, a lion's head cabossed Or.
[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name, will accept all changes and if changes must be made, is most interested in the meaning "being from Darkwater".
Lyon is English and is found in R&W p. 289 dated to 1293 s.n. Lyon, “Lyon, son of Lyon 1293.” Also found in Withycombe, pg. 193 s.n. Leo, Leon or Lyon is found in England in the Middle Ages, usually as a Jewish Name.
Darkwater is a barony in Trimaris (registered 12/08). This is not a holding name; the submitter wants to be known as Lyon of Darkwater.
[Armory] This conflicts with Vair ancient, a lion’s head cabossed Or, orbed and langued gules. (Meridies, Kingdom of, 02/80) and Vert, a lion’s head affronty Or, orbed vert, (Jehanne de Lyonesse, 07/71) with only one CD for change of field tincture. The submitter might consider changing the number of lion's heads to four or five, or adding a peripheral charge such as a gold border or chief with some type of complex line of division (invected would look nice with the lion's main). Additional conflict checking is suggested and will be required at the time of resubmission.
Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.
The Barony of Dreiburgen grants permission for the Lochac Order of the Rapier to conflict with the Dreiburgen School of Rapier
Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman). “French Surnames from Paris, 1421, 1423 & 1438”, http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html .
Colm Dubh. “An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris.” Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic Symposium 1996. SCA: Montgomery, Alabama; WWW: SCA, Inc., 1997. (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html)
De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.
Mac Niocaill, Gearóid and William M. Hennessy. Chronicon Scotorum. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/T100016/text138.html.
Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien), Index of Names in Irish Annals: Descriptive Bynames: Clannach. http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Clannach.
Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien), Index of Names in Irish Annals: Tairdelbach / Toirdhealbhach http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Toirdhealbhach.shtml
Zoëga, A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic www.northvegr.org/zoega/h230.php
The Self Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, St Karina with her husband and son. http://www.antiochian.org/node/16874.
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