Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2008/min0811.php on line 2

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2008/min0811.php on line 2

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2008/min0811.php on line 5

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2008/min0811.php on line 5
Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the November 23, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Su Crescent, Illuminada Dolphin, Lachlan Silver Abacus, Anne Catherine of Wickenbonhunt, Brynja of Altavia, John ap Griffin, Martin de Montyro do Monte, Hrorek Chevron, Cormac Battlement.

Upcoming meetings are: December 14, January 25, February 24, and March 22. The December meeting will take place at the home of then Crescent Su with the traditional holiday party.

June 2008 LOAR – If changes are made in names at Kingdom, the reasons for the change should be noted on OSCAR.  Names without documentation will be returned by Laurel.  Per Crescent, names without documentation will be returned at Kingdom level.
From Wreath – the standard for the use of an overall charge surmounting a fimbriated ordinary is that henceforth it is acceptable as long as identifiability is maintained.    Registration of a device using a Letter of Permission to Conflict does not establish a CD between the particular designs, unless it is explicitly stated.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate.  Approved submissions will be forwarded on the January 30, 2009 Letter of Intent.


Altavia, Barony of

Saint Firmin, College of.  New Device:  Per bend gules and sable, a bull statant guardant argent within an orle of grape vines Or, leaved and fructed.

[Name] Submitted on the Caidan 12/31/08 LoI.

[Armory] This device is being returned because:  1. lack of letter of support from the populace.   2. does not include a laurel wreath, which is required on the device of any geopolitical unit.  3. The orle is not in fact an orle – it is neither an annulet, a wreath, nor an orle.  4. The vine needs to be more substantial.  5.  On resubmission please do not use computer to print colored copies, they are not acceptable. 

Device returned for missing required charge.


Caid, Kingdom of

Caid, Kingdom of. New Order name, Chamfron of Caid, Order of the, and badge. Azure, on a chamfron argent a crescent azure, a bordure embattled argent.

[Name] Kingdom name registered 02/75. The submitter will allow changes as needed. If changes must be made, the meaning is most important.

Chamfron is a heraldic charge, and a period artifact. The Oxford English Dictionary (Compact Ed. Vol. I p.375, s.n. Chamfrain, -fron) dates the word Shawfron, meaning "The frontlet of a barded or armed horse", to 1465. 1465 Mann & Househ. Exp. 287 to hym that made the sahfron, iiije. ijd. Ibid 288 Shamfron. The college suggests that Chamfron is a reasonable spelling variant.

Chamfron of Caid follows the naming pattern "heraldic charge + location". Project Ombudsman (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/order/Pattern.htm) lists six order names of the patterns "Thing + Place" or "Thing + Place + Place", five of which are similar to this submission: "Lily of Navarre" (1048), "Spurs of Naples" (1266), "Knot of Naples" (1351), "Scale of Castile" (1430), and "Cross of Burgundy in Tunis" (1535).

This name is clear of "White Chamfron, Order of the" (Middle, Kingdom of the, 08/99) due to the removal of the substantive element "White". The submitter has chosen to add the locative to the name to further avoid confusion, though its addition does not contribute to clearing conflict, per College of Arms precedent.  Branch references, such as of Drachenwald, are transparent for conflict purposes. Therefore, in normal circumstances, the order name Queen's Order of Courtesy of Drachenwald would conflict with the East Kingdom's Queen's Order of Courtesy, since no difference is given for the addition of ‘of Drachenwald’ because it is a branch reference. Previous precedent has ruled that the addition of a branch reference, in conjuction with a letter of permission to conflict, is enough to clear conflict (Kingdom of Caid, The Order of the White Scarf of Caid, registered September 1997; Barony of Aneala, Order of the Golden Swan of Aneala, registered July 1999). [Drachenwald, Kingdom of, 01/2003 LoAR, A-Drachenwald]

[Armory] Device is returned for violating precedent ‘The chamfron is a sufficiently difficult charge to identify that charging it makes it unidentifiable’. (Flora Monswife, 11/99)  The college suggests resubmitting without the crescent, which appears to be clear at this time.  The complete portion of the bordure, rather than the embattlement, also needs to be drawn wider.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.  Device is returned for unidentifiable tertiary charge.


Caid, Kingdom of. New badge. Azure, a crescent argent and overall a lance palewise Or, a bordure embattled argent

[Name] Registered 02/75. The Golden Lance Treaty provides permission to conflict, but Caid won't be a signatory on that treaty until this coming Gulf Wars. We requested individual permissions to conflict from the two kingdoms above, so that we can get the submissions going sooner rather than later, but have yet to receive them.

[Armory] The bottom portion of the lance bell needs to be more distinct from the bottom of the crescent with the bell more flared and the crescent a bit smaller. The complete portion of the bordure, rather than the embattlements, also needs to be drawn wider.

Device is returned for redraw.

Calafia, Barony of

Pelagon Phthiôtes. Kingdom resubmission device. Or, a bearded demi-angel head to dexter conjoined to two serpents' tails glissant palewise sable, crined and winged gules vested of a scale shirt argent.

[Name]  Registered 07/08.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Or, a bearded demi-angel head to dexter sable, vested of a scale shirt argent, crined and winged conjoined to two serpents' tails glissant palewise gules (Identical to this one save the tincture of the serpents' tails, which is now also sable, rather than gules) was returned by Crescent 02/08 for conflict:

This is returned for conflict with Or, a standing seraph gules (Henry of Three Needles, 02,02). As neither a standing seraph nor a "Typhon" is a period, heraldic charge, the two must be compared by visual differences. While Crescent believes it is reasonable to grant a CD between the two, the charges are not substantially different enough for X.2 difference. The majority of this charge is gules, with not quite half of the charge sable and argent. Therefore, we do not feel a second CD for change in tincture of primary charge is reasonable.

The submitter has changed the color of the serpents' tails to make the whole charge more sable than gules to qualify for an additional CD for change in tincture of primary charge.

The form was printed at a smaller size that required.  (If it can be redrawn before the packet is submitted, this was found to be clear of conflict and therefore acceptable.)

Device is returned for non-standard form size.

Dun Or, Barony of

Sven Örfhendur - New badge. (Fieldless) A Hungerford knot inverted sable.

[Name] Registered 11/94.

[Armory] There was some concern that this might visually conflict with Argent, a Bowen knot in cross sable (Darcy Graham, 02/81), however we feel that there is sufficient difference to forward it. 

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel. 


Sven Örfhendur - New badge. (Fieldless) A Hungerford knot sable.

[Name] Registered 11/94.

[Armory]  There was some concern that this might visually conflict with Argent, a Bowen knot in cross sable (Darcy Graham, 02/81), however we feel that there is sufficient difference to forward it. 

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel. 


Isles, Shire of the

Niccolo d'Angelo. New name and device. Bendy sable and argent, on a chief gules a lion passant Or.

[Name] Submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept no changes.
Niccolo is a masculine name found in "Italian Given Names from the Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532" by Aranhwy verch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/florence1282-1532.html).
d'Angelo is a patronymic based on the masculine name Angelo found in "Italian Given Names from the Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532" by Aranhwy verch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/florence1282-1532.html).

[Armory] Though the chief is slightly larger than 1/3, the college sees this as acceptable. 

Name and device are approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Nordwache, Barony of

Aoibheann inghean uí Taichligh. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will not accept changes.

Aoibheann is documented from S. Gabriel report 669 which lists "Aoibhinn or Aoibheann \EE-vin\". The sources for this data are "Donnchadh O'Corrain and Fidelma Maguire, Irish Names (Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990)" and "Black, George F., The Surnames of Scotland, (New York: The New York Public Library, 1986)". The same name is documented in the later S. Gabriel Report 1103, again with OCM as the source.  Wolfe cites Aoibheann as the lenited version,, 

Aoibhenn is found in Index of Names in Irish Annals dtd to 1066 at http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Aibinn.shtml

The submitter would prefer Aoibheann, but will accept Aoibeann.  She may accept other spellings but wants to be consulted first.
inghean uí Taichligh is decedent of Taichligh, a name documented from "Monasticon Hibernicum" by Mervyn Archdall (Vol II, p.155) "A.C. 1049. Maelcainnigh Ua Taichligh, Comharba of Daimhinis, died. O'Donovan writes that this name is now anglicized Tully and Tilly. In 1347, Maelmaedhog O'Taichligh was official of Lough Erne."

[Administrative] The submitter provided a payment of $10. As the submission fees are now at $8 per submission, the College of Heralds will provide a $2 refund.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Starkhafn, Barony of

Starkhafn, Barony of. Kingdom resubmission badge for former territorial barons and baronesses of Starkhafn. (Fieldless) On a roundel sable between and conjoined to eight crescents in annulo horns outward a flame argent.

[Name] The branch name was registered 06/80.

[Armory] This submission was paid for 08/07 with a check including the submission fees for the other eight badges of this type. At that time, though, the Caid College of Heralds did not receive submission forms from Starkhafn. Therefore, this submission does not appear in the August ’07 minutes, though the receipt of the fee is reflected in the financial records of the meeting. This can either be considered a new submission, previously paid for, or a timely resubmission of a submission previously returned for lack of paperwork. Either way, the submitter should not pay a fee for this submission.

The blanket letters of permission to conflict with the other eight submissions of this type were returned by Laurel 02/08. This submission, with a sable primary charge, does not conflict with any of the previous badges with other colored primary charges. Permission to conflict is not necessary.  On that Loar, the following comment was made:

We note that the roundel and crescents are co-primary charges. This badge does not conflict with the badges submitted by the baronies of Calafia, Dreiburgen, Dun Or, Gyldenholt, Lyondemere, Naevehjem, and Nordewache at the same time. In each case there is a CD for fieldlessness and another for substantially changing the type of the tertiary charge.

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Order of Precedence Notes

None.


Bibliography

Aryanhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman). “Italian Given Names from the Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532.” WWW: Sara L. Friedemann, 2001, 2002. (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/italian/florence1282-1532.html)

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [ÓC&M]

Oxford University. The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. New York: Oxford University Press, 1971. [OED]

Standard disclaimer

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page