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Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the August 17, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Hrorek Chevron, Damien Sable Fret, Erik Flame, Tieghearnan Coral, and Jared Seraph.

Upcoming meetings are: September 28, October 19, November 23 and December 14. Meetings through November are at Lachlan's, with the move after the November meeting.  The December meeting will be at the new Crescent's house in Fullerton. Su would like to do some of the preliminary moving in October, particularly things we don’t use as often. 

Next week is Crown Tournament at Calle Mayor.  Mary Bellows will appreciate having many field heralds to make the work lighter.

The March 2008 LoAR included no Caid submissions.  Elizabeth, Margaret and Jeanne Marie were elevated to the rank of "Herald Extraordinary".  The new team plans to be more diligent about forms being complete and correct.  "Strawberry proper" is now defined as gules, leaved vert, seeds are optional, and do not contribute to conflict resolution.   Salterelle, a diminutive of the Saltire, has caused reblazoning.  "Salterelle" is defined as a saltire couped. "Skinny" saltires will be blazoned either as "saltires" (if the primary charge) or "saltires throughout" if tertiary. 

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate.  Approved submissions will be forwarded on the October 27, 2008 Letter of Intent.

Angels, Barony of the

Jason Thomas the Wanderer. Laurel resubmission badge. (Fieldless) A bowen knot gules.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 08/88.

[Armory] In 03/07 Laurel returned his previous submission, Gules, a bezant charged with a Bowen knot crosswise gules ".for conflict with device for Leofua of Thornridge, Gules, on a bezant, a leopard leaping bendwise sinister, head to base, sable, with a single CD for the changes to the tertiary charge." This is a complete re-design.

This is in conflict with Pean, a Bowen knot in cross gules fimbriated Or (Douglas MacAndrew, 03/82) with one CD for field.  There is no CD for fimbriation. This is clear of Tinctureless, a bowen knot (Bowen, 12/94, important non-SCA badge).  There is one CD for tincture, and another for orientation.  Also, we had concerns about conflict with Tinctureless, a quatrefoil knot (Eilis ni roibeard O’Boirne, 08/77), but finally decided this is clear because of orientation – a bowen knot is saltirewise, while a quatrefoil knot is crosswise.

Badge returned for conflict.


Calafia, Barony of

Dvora Iador. New name and device. Per pale gules and or, a seablatt counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound, "vora".

Dvora is found in Wickenden (p56) as a feminine name dated to 1432.

Iador is an unmarked patronymic based upon the masculine name found in Wickenden (p79), a 3rd C. Saint and found in patronymic form, "Iadrovskii" in 1595. Use of an unmarked patronymic in a Russian name is one step from period practice ("Raymond Silverwood. Alternate name Vitek Nahaika. This name uses an unmarked patronymic in a Russian name; this is one step from period practice.” 12/07 LoAR).  Crescent believes this name is pronounced "Ya-dor."

[Armory]   This is clear of:  Per pale gules and Or, a heart voided and a bordure counterchanged (Sciath nic an Leagha, 08/99) with one CD for deletion of the voiding, and another for removing the bordure.  Upon a visual check of Sciath's device, the college felt there is no visual conflict.  While precedent indicates there is no difference between a heart and a seablatt:

[Argent, a seeblatt gules between two bendlets sinister azure.] This conflicts with Karen Roslin: Argent, a heart gules between two pallets wavy azure. There is a CD for type of secondary charge between bendlets sinister and pallets wavy, but changing the line of division is part of the type change. There is no CD for type between a heart and a seeblatt, leaving just the single CD. [Grietje Crynes, LoAR 09/2004, Northshield-R]
the original armory has the primary charge voided, and so is visually different.

Name and device are approved and forwarded to Laurel


Parlan of Ord. Kingdom resubmission device. Pean, on a cauldron argent two dolphins respectant sable.

[Name] Forwarded on Caid's 2008-09-30 LoI.

[Armory] This is a kingdom resubmission from the July 2008 meeting, "As drawn, the tertiary charges are not identifiable as heraldic dolphins. This is reason for return."

This design must also be returned for a redraw.  The dolphins are not in a heraldic position, nor are they recognizable as heraldic dolphins.  This submission does not address the concerns of the previous return.

Device returned for redraw.


Jyne o' the Dell. New name and device. Per chevron inverted azure and vert, a tower Or within an orle of bezants.

[Name] Submitted as June o' the Dell. The submitter desires a masculine name and allows no changes except the given name "Jyne" is acceptable if necessary to register the name.

June is the submitter's legal given name as documented from her Certificate of Naturalization. No documentation was provided and none found showing this name was used in period. Therefore, we can only forward it by application of the legal name allowance. This places the name one step from period practice.

o’ the Dell is the registered byname of her natural son, Torin o’ the Dell (10/92). She provides, as proof of the relationship, a copy of Thorin's Certificate of Birth. The legal surnames on the two documents do match. No documentation was provided and none found showing this name was used in period. Therefore, we can only forward it by extension of the "grandfather clause" to near relation. This places the name one further step from period practice.

A name which is technically two steps from period practice cannot be approved. To avoid this problem, we are changing the given name to the submitter's documented alternate choice:

Jyne is found in  Talen Gwenyk’s  "A List of Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records" (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/scottishfem.html) with the note "Jyne 1552 [FLATAY, 267] (From Jane?)".

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.  Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Nonne Reerdan. Laurel resubmission device. Per pale argent and vert, in saltire a viol and its bow per pale vert and argent.  

[Name] This name was registered 02/08.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, with a blazon identical to this one, was returned by Laurel 02/08 with the following comments

This device is returned for using a non-period form of a viol bow. Period bows had a noticeable curve, which curved outward. The innovation that had the viol bow curve inward instead of outward didn't happen until after 1600 (Montagu, The World of Medieval & Renaissance Musical Instruments).

The submitter has re-drawn their device using a period musical bow. The emblazon is based upon an illustration from Virdung, Musica Getutscht, 1511, showing a rebec, a tromba marina (a monochord played like a modern cello) and two bows.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Roana Sparrowhawk. New name.

[Name] Submitted as Rowena Sparowhawk. The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the language and/or culture, "Celtic."  In written consultation, the submitter was notified that she would no longer be able to register "Rowena" in the SCA as of the LoAR Cover Letter of 09/07. The consulting herald also offered the documentable alternative "Roana", and the submitter indicated that this would be acceptable, if Rowena was not.

Since documentation of the use of this name in period has not been provided, we are changing this to the submitter's alternate choice, "Roana", though that name is not Gaelic.

Roana is found in R&W (p.380, s.n. Roan) as a feminine given name dated to 1212, probably from the color roan.

Sparrowhawk is an undated spelling found in R&W (p.420). Dated spellings include Sparhauk 1327, Sperhauec 1212, and Sparhawk 1327.

Bardsley, pg 706, s.n. Sparrow, cites Sparrow – Robert Sparrow, 1529 putting the submitted spelling in the "Grey Area”

Name is approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.


Carreg Wen, Shire of

Johann von Magdeburg. Laurel resubmission device. Per pale argent and sable, three goblets counterchanged.

[Name] This name was registered 05/01.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Sable, in canton a goblet and a gore sinister argent was returned by Laurel 12/07 for "conflict with the device of Frederic Badger, Sable, a chalice within an orle argent." This is a complete re-design.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Brígíða inn kyrrí. New name and device. Quarterly wavy azure and ermine, in bend three estoiles azure.

[Name]  Submitted as Bírtta in kyrrí.  The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound and language/culture "Norse/Viking ~12th century".

Brígiða is found in Geirr Bassi on page 8. Additional email communication with the submitter confirmed, "yes, BRIgi(th)a is fine.  I like it better, actually."

inn kyrrí is a descriptive byname found in Geirr Bassi (p.25) meaning quiet or gentle. We are adding the extra 'n' to match the documentation.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.  Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Maedhbh Douglass. New name and device. Gules, in pale an escallop and a crescent and on a chief argent, five war hammers bendwise sable.

[Name] Submitted as Maeve Douglass.  The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept all changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound, "Maeve Douglass (cares most about 1st name)".

Maeve is discussed in St Gabriel Report 2196 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2196+0) relevant passage copied and (copy attached)

<Maeve> is a modern English form of the Irish Gaelic name which was recorded in your period as <Meadhbh> [1].  It was a very popular woman's name in Ireland throughout your period; it was pronounced \MEHV\.  We do not find it recorded in Scotland; whether this fact is due to the limited number of surviving Gaelic records, or because the name was not used in Scotland, we can't be sure. We do find the name <Mavis> recorded in a Scots-language document in 16th century Aberdeen [2]; this name may or may not have been influenced by the Gaelic <Meadhbh><
. References are:
[1] O/ Corra/in, Donnchadh and Fidelma Maguire, _Irish Names_ (Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990), s.n. Meadhbh.
[2] The manuscript Aberdeen Council Registers, Volumes 8 - 20 (1501-1551), in the Aberdeen City Archives, years 1532-3, Mavis Glenny.  This is the only example of the name we have in Scotland, so it was by no means a common name.

We have changed the name to the documented "Meadhbh", to be more temporally compatible with the spelling "Douglas".  Meadhbh is documented to between 1440's and 1580's in "Index of Names in Irish Annals", by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan  (Kathleen M. O’brien
http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/1201-1600.shtml#Gaelic1500)

Douglass is found in Black, but has few period dated spellings. St GabrielReport 2794 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2794+0) has dated spellings and a justification for the spelling "Douglas" from the documented "Dovglas" (1499).

We have found the following examples of the bynames <Douglas> in Scots records from the 15th and 16th centuries:
[5] Douglase 1429, Dulglass 1433, Dulglace 1454, Dovglas 1499, Douglace 1504, Dowglace 1511, Dougles 1529, Dawgleiss 1540, Dowglass 1559, and Dougleische 1583.

Based on these examples, a 16th century <Douglas> is not implausible. Variation between <u>, <v>, and <w> is quite common, so in any of the names above it would be reasonable to substitute <u> for a <v> or <w>, so speculating <Douglass> based on the 1499 example <Dowglass> is very reasonable.

Also given the spellings "Dawgleiss" and "Dowglass", the submitted spelling is plausible.

Name is approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Isles, Shire of the

Christian von Eiland. New name and device. Sable, on a pale azure fimbriated, three crosses formy argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name and requests changes to be authentic for "14-15th Cent. German (Bavaria)". He will accept minor, though not major changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the meaning "of Isles".

Christian is listed in "Late Period German Masculine Given Names" by Talan Gwynek (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/germmasc.html). It was recorded in 15th C. Plauen. Also, Cristianus is cited as a German given name in "German Given Names 1200-1250" by Talen Gwynek.  (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/germ13.html).

von Eiland is intended to mean "of the Isles". The submitter provided no documentation supporting this. The formation is not grammatical. "Von" is used with specific placenames, rather than generic toponomic words.  We made an unsuccessful attempt to find a period town called "Eiland". Likewise, Bahlow does not list any bynames based on the word "Eiland."

According to "Cassell's New German and English Dictionary" by Karl Breul, "das Eiland" is the "poetic" word meaning "island". It is found on p. 300 in the English to German section of the book. It is not found in the German to English section. The plural form would be "Eilandes", and so, as a byname, might be encountered as "vom den Eilandes" (from the Islands) or perhaps "Eilandesmann/Eilandmann" (man from the Islands/man from an Island). The German to English section lists "Insel" (plural: Inselen) with definition "island". This word might produce the bynames "vom den Inselen" (from the Islands) or perhaps "Inselenmann/Inselmann" (man from the Islands/man from an Island). Finally, Bahlow (p.270) lists an undated byname, "Inselmann," with the meaning "from Insel near Soltaur or Stendal", which may or may not be derived from the submitter's desired meaning. If the place can be found in period, another plausible byname would be "von Insel". A modern-day Insel is found in Sachsen-Anhalt, though we have not yet found evidence this place existed in period.

So, in the end, we must return this for lack of documentation of the byname construction. While the submitter requests (minor) changes to make the name authentic, all of the possible alternatives we have come up with would be too dissimilar to the submitted spelling.

[Armory] This conflicts with Sable, on a pale azure fimbriated a Latin cross bottony argent (Karl inn Kristni, 05/06) with only one CD for cumulative changes to the tertiary charge group. 

Name is returned for lack of documentation, and device is returned for conflict.


Starkhafn, Barony of

Safiya bint Nasr al-Samiriyya. New alternate name Grace Fenix

[Name] The submitter's primary name was registered 02/05. The submitter desires a feminine name.  She will accept minor but not major changes, and cares most about the sound and spelling, "any form of 'phoenix'."  

Grace is found in Withycombe (3rd Edition, pg. 138 s.n. Grace) cites Grace from Chester 1562.

Fenix is found on St. Gabriel's report 3042 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?3042+0) which indicates that the name was very infrequently used in England (three examples John Phenix from Brabant 1571, John Fenix 1593 and Charles Phenix 1610). We were unable to verify the citation in Bardsley for John Fenix, but feel the St Gabriel's citations are accurate enough to forward this name. We also noted: John Fenix yoman, his wife…Fenix, Philip Thomas yoman, his wife… dated to 1 March 1628, hearing which fined persons for not attending church.   from: 'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1628', Middlesex county records: Volume 3: 1625-67 (1888), pp. 17-25. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66020&strquery=fenix

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Simon Montgumery. New Badge A skull argent jessant-de-lys gules.

[Name] Registered 08/03.

[Armory]  The use of a skull jessant-de-lis is a step from period practice – 03/96 in returning Eudoxia d'Antioche. Badge. [Fieldless] An owl's head jessant-de-lis argent:

A number of commenters had concerns about the identifiability of the head here. Some believed that it was indistinguishable from a leopard's head jessant-de-lis, and thus returnable under RfS VII.7.a. The fact that the head and the fleur were of the same tincture does tend to confuse the identity of each and thus to make the identifiability of the combination problematical. There was also some concern that we here we are getting too far from period practice. (Period practice being leopard's head jessant-de-lys; one step from period practice being other beast's heads; and two steps from period practice being other types of heads, including birds' heads.) Given that we have in recent years a number of different types of heads (including humanoid) jessant of items other than a fleur-de-lis (including a complex cross), Laurel does not feel that this submission is so far from SCA practice as warrant a return on that ground.
Since the skull and the fleur for this badge are two contrasting tinctures, this badge does not have the difficulties of the returned badge, and we should be able to register the badge with only one step from period practice.

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Svana skósvein.  New device.  Per bend sinister argent and azure, a heart azure and a water bouget Or.

[Name] Registered 06/06.

[Armory] The form was marked as a resubmission, but we have no record of a previous submission, so this is treated as a new device.

[Administration] Unfortunately, this must be returned due to lack of funds.

Device is returned for lack of funds.


Order of Precedence Notes

Dvora Iador has an award of arms under the name Vora of the Myrmadons.


Bibliography

Bardsley, Charles. W., “A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames”. London, 1901; Ramsbury, Wiltshire: Heraldry Today. Reprint ed.: 1988

Black, George F.,  “The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History”.  New York: The New York Public Library, 1946.  Ninth printing, 1989.  [Black]

Breul, Karl, "Cassell's New German and English Dictionary"

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson,  “The Old Norse Name”.  Olney, MD: Studia Marklandica, 1977.  [Geirr Bassi]

Mari Elspeth nic Bryan. “Index of Names in Irish Annals”, http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/1201-1600.shtml#Gaelic1500

'Middlesex Sessions Rolls: 1628', Middlesex county records: Volume 3: 1625-67 (1888), pp. 17-25. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=66020&strquery=fenix

McLeod, Donald, “Good Words”, ed. by Norman McLeod,  http://books.google.com/books?id=d4JMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA683&lpg=PA683&dq=Eiland+in+german+names&source=web&ots=2aoVwztkP0&sig=b4h4vW1xpF5uZvJ9xyzh7gum8bs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result  

Physicians and Irregular Medical Practitioners in London 1550-1640: Database (2004). URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=17712&strquery=phoenix

Reaney, P.  H., and Wilson, R.  M.,  “A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford”,  Oxford Uni.  Press, 3rd ed.  1995.  [R&W]

Saint Gabriel report 2196 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2196+0)

Saint Gabriel report 2794 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2794+0)

Saint Gabriel report 3042 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?3042+0)

Talan Gwynek, "A List of Feminine Personal Names Found in Scottish Records" http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/scottishfem.html.

Talen Gwynek, "German Given Names 1200-1250" (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/germ13.html).

Talen Gwynek, “Late Period German Masculine Names” (http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/germmasc.html)

Wickenden of Thanet, Paul “Dictionary of Period Russian Names”, 2nd Ed

Withycombe, E.  G., “The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names”.  Oxford: Oxford Uni.  Press 3rd ed.  1977.  [Withycombe]


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