Minutes of the May 18, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Cassandre Nicole Loustaunau, Meala Caimbeul, Cormac Battlement, Damian Sable Fret, Vivienne Recorder, Rotherick Kynith, Marion Coral, and Jared Seraph.

Upcoming meetings are: June 22, July 13, August 17, September 28, October 19, November 23 and December 14.

The June meeting will be a work party with no submissions being accepted, The November meeting will include moving the Heraldic library and files to Su Crescent's house, and the December meeting will be the first meeting in Fullerton.

Illuminada is going to step up as Dolphin, after Su steps up as Crescent. Vivienne is going to take over maintenance of the OP and as Collegium Regent, Cormac is going to be in charge of recruiting new field and court heralds, and Meala will be helping Vivienne with sending the notification letters and with more administrative work.

Coronation will be busy, because Su will be elevated to the Order of the Pelican,

Please advise all heralds to have submitters fill in all the spaces at the top of the forms including phone numbers and e-mail addresses.

These minutes were taken by Illuminada and Cormac. They were edited by Su and Lachlan.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the July 28, 2008 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Aleksandra Petrovskaia. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She accepts all changes, and if the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound: "Alexandra Petrovskaya"

Aleksandra is documented from Wickenden 3rd ed. p. 4 "Aleksandra - wife of Grand Prince Ivan, 1389"

Petrovskaia is also documented Wickenden 3rd ed. p. 266 under header 'PETR-' - "Ovdotia Petrovskaia, late 16th C."

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Caesaria Challes de Kyrkeland. New name and device. Gules, in pale a sun in splendor Or and a chalice argent, a chief engrailed erminois.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept all changes, and if changes are necessary, she cares most about meaning 'Caesaria Challes from a place called Kyrkeland'. The submitter will accept losing the 'de Kyrkeland' if the name cannot be passed with it.

Caesaria is documented from http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/talan/reaney/index_mid2.html, which indicates the name is a feminization of Caesar.

Challes is documented from British History Online, http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=4133025

Exch. Lay Subs. 1332 (Rec. Soc. Lancs. and Ches.), 115;

there is a long list of the inhabitants.

For a dispute concerning land here in 1349, Challes v. Pettit,

see De Banc. R. 358, m. 64d.; 360, m. 52d.

de Kyrkeland is a locative byname. R&W (p.191, s.n. Kirkland) lists a 'John de Kyrkeland' c. 1280. http://books.google.com/books?id=5wMNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=de+kyrkland&source=web&ots=Yh38VkDXc8&sig=25OZ4vUDABQj4FDTlaQi3jTR6wQ&hl=en

The History of the Parish of Garstang in the County of Lancaster - Google Books Result

by Henry Fishwick – (1878 - Garstang, England) mentions "B. John Stirzaker de Kyrkland" in the 14th c.

[Armory] The armory does appear complex, but the complexity count is seven, and to Crescent's eyes it does not appear unregisterarably so.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Cian Dorcha. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name, will accept any changes and cares most about the sound "Kane Dorcha (Gaelic)".

Cian is found in "Names in Irish Annals" (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Cian.shtml) but would not be pronounced "Kane".

Dorcha is found in the "Names in Irish Annals" but would not be pronounced "Dorcha" with a "ch" like in "chip" (http://www.medievalscotland.org/kmo/AnnalsIndex/DescriptiveBynames/Dorcha.shtml).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Secca of Cantia. Laurel resubmission name (Change of holding name from Brett of Altavia).

[Name] Submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept all changes, and cares most about the spelling of the first name "Secca". If this name is registered, the submitter wishes his holding name, Brett of Altavia, to be released.

Previous submission, Secca of Venice was returned by Laurel on the Oct 2007 LoAR:

This name has several problems. If taken at face value, the name is two steps from period practice. First, it combines an Old English given name (the name is documented from an Old English poem and is probably an Anglicized form of a Gothic name) with a Middle or Modern English byname. Second, there is a more than 300 year gap between the 7th C date for Secca and the earliest date we have been able to find in English for Venice. The earliest reference to Venice spelling in English we have been able to locate is in the "Middle English Dictionary", s.v. Venice, which has Rob. de Venuiz in 1130. The earliest example of the spelling Venice in English we have been able to locate is in various editions of Mandeville's Travels (such as The buke of John Mandeuill, being the travels of Sir John Mandeville, knight, 1322-1356 : a hitherto unpublished English version from the unique copy (Egerton ms. 1982) in the British Museum, ed George Warner). As all editions of Mandeville we have been able to locate are from later manuscript copies, this puts the date somewhat later than the 1322-1356 dates covered by the Travels.

If we take the given name as a Gothic name, the name is still unregisterable. In this interpretation, the name combines a Gothic given name with a Middle or Modern English byname. Such combinations are not registable.

If the submitter is interested in the name Secca as an Old English name, it is registerable in that context. Ekwall, The Oxford Dictionary of English Placenames, s.n. Seckington, notes that it derives from the Old English personal name Secca.

Secca is documented from Ekwall, p. 410, Seckington, Seccandun 755, Sechingtone, Secca's Dun. Secca pers. N. occurse in Widsith and is the first el. Of Seccanham (dtd) 898 and Seckford Sf at Bealings [Sekeforda DB, Secheford 1206 Cur].

of Cantia is also documented from Ekwell, p 272, Kent, the county (Cantium 52 b.c. Ceasar, Kantion Diodorus, Strabo, Kantion akron Ptol, Cantia c 730 Bede, Cent 658.

(Dolphin feels this should be close enough – both Old English names, within 25 years of each other ;-)

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Quatalina de la Serena. New Name

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name, will accept all changes, and if changes must be made, is most interested in the unspecified meaning.

Quatalina is documented from Talan Gwynek's "Late Period Feminine Names from the South of France" which dates this spelling to 1521.

de la Serena in Juliana de Luna's "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century" as a locative surname de la Serna with the alternate spelling de la Serena.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Ysabel d'Outre-mer. New Badge. (Fieldless) On an escallop inverted argent, a fleur-de-lis vert.

[Name] Registered 02/03.

[Armory] This device conflicts with Fieldless, on an escallop inverted argent a sea-moose vert. (Seumas Sionnach Geal, 11/95). Changing only the type of tirciary charge is insufficient for a CD according to X.4.j.i. An escallop is not a suitable charge for application of X.4.j.ii. Given this, there is only one CD for lack of a field.

Badge returned for conflict.

Angels, Barony of the

Angels, Barony of the. New order name: Cloak, Order of the.

[Administrative] This submission was received late and pended due to lack of time.

Pended for lack of time.

Angels, Barony of the. New order name and badge: Archangels, Company of the [Fieldless] a bow gules drawn of an arrow Or.

[Administrative] This submission was received late and pended due to lack of time.

Pended for lack of time.

Caid, Kingdom of

Caid, Kingdom of. New badge. (Fieldless) four crescents conjoined in saltire horns outward and overall two arrows in saltire argent.

[Name] The group name was registered 02/75. This badge is to be associated with the generic designator, "Caidan Academy of Archers

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Allysander Thorne. New name.

[Name] The submitter has not indicated any preferences.

Allysander is found in Durham St. Oswald Marriages 1538-1734, which lists on 20 Nov 1540 Allysander Thomson = Allyson Manforth.

Thorne is documented from R&W p. 444, s.n. Thorn which glosses as 'Dweller by the thorn-bush(es)" (OE ðorn) or from Thorne (Som. WRYorks). Thorne is also documented from Julie Kahan's "Surnames in Durham and Northumberland, 1521-1615". The name is dated to 1592.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Anne Ouy de York. Kingdom resubmission name.

[Name] The submitter's previous name submission, Anne Ouy, appeared on the 03/08 Letter of Intent from Caid, and is hereby withdrawn. The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes.

Anne is found in Withycombe (p.25, header) as the French version of the Hebrew Hannah and was a favorite Byzantine name and brought from France to England in 1218 but was rare until the beginning of the 13th C.

Ouy is found in Dauzat (p.459, header), which says: "peut-être sobriquet d'après un mot familier (oui)" (Translation: Perhaps a sobriquet based upon the familiar word (oui)) The submitter's alternate, Noue, is also in Dauzat (p.453, header) as a toponym, with the comment ""field, hamlet, ancient fief". (domaine, hameau, anc. fief).

de York is a locative byname. R&W p. 508 cites John de York 1324.

The addition of the locative de York should remove any conflict with Anna Oy, on the Eastern LoI of 12/07.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Arabella Gotokirke. New device. Quarterly purpure and sable, an elephant contourny, trumpeting argent.

[Name] The submitter's name appeared on the 10/31/2007 Letter of Intent.

[Armory] This conflicts with Fieldless, an elephant contourney argent bearing on its back a tower proper (Order of Elephant, 11/98) with one CD for addition of the field. In period, elephants were drawn with or without towers as a matter of artistic license, and therefore removing the tower does not warrant a CD. Also we note the possible additional conflict with Fieldless, an elephant contourney proper (Donn son of Fergus 03/94). There is a CD for addition of the field. It is likely there is no CD for the posture of the elephant's trunk alone.

Device returned for conflict.

Cei Myghchaell Wellinton. Kingdom resubmission badge. (Fieldless) A quatrefoil quarterly azure and erminois.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 04/85.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, with a blazon identical to this one, was returned by Crescent, 11/07 for redraw: "While this badge is clear of conflict at this time, we must return this for redraw. The ermine spots are not recognizable. We recognize various depictions, but this submission uses none of them." This emblazon is an improvement.

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Fergus Ó Dubhshláine. New name.

[Name] The submitter has not indicated any preferences.

Fergus. The submitter provides a copy of Academy of Saint Gabriel Report 2600, which states "<Fergus> is a Scots form of the Gaelic name <Fearghus>; it is found in Anglo-Norman and Scots sources as early as the 12th century... <Gilbert Feregus> 1199 and <John Fergus> 1251." The source for this paragraph is R&W.

So, in R&W p. 166, s.n. Fergus, cited this spelling Gael Fearghus OIr. R&W also cites Ferguson, John Fergusson dtd to 1466. We have not forwarded to Laurel the paper copies of the Saint Gabriel's reports because of this additional "no-copy" documentation.

Ó Dubhshláine is documented by the submitter from "16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe" by Kathleen M. Obrien. Ó Dubsláine is also found on p.513 of Woulfe. s.n. Ó Dub.s.láine, as the name of a family formerly chiefs of Coill Uachtrach, now called Upper Woods. Again, no photocopy source, no copies.

Combination of English and Anglicized Irish in SCA names has been ruled a step from period practice (Gareth McGilchrist, 11/04). Scots being a dialect of English, it is likely also to be one step from period practice when combined with Anglicized Irish.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Giovanna Ricci. New name and device. Or, a griffin salient gules sustaining a needle palewise argent threaded gules.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes.

Giovanna is documented from Arval Benicoeur's (Feminine Given Names from the Online Catsto of Florence of 1427) with 39 instances, http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/catasto/newsearch/first_names.html

Ricci is documented from Arval Benicoeur's (Feminine Given Names from the Online Catsto of Florence of 1427) with 26 instances. http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/catasto/newsearch/family_names.html

[Armory] This must be returned due to insufficient contrast of the argent needle on the Or field. A partial conflict check indicates that this would be likely to pass if the needle were tinctured with a color.

Name is approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for insufficient contrast.

Hruodland úlfblód. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept all changes necessary and if changes must be made, he cares most about the unspecified meaning and sound.

Hruodland is documented from Bahlow/Gentry (p.464, s.n. Roland) the spelling that Einhard (Charlemagne's biographer) calls the paladin Roland. Hruodland: Brechenmacher vol.2 p.245 s.n. Roland says this is how Einhard wrote the hero Roland's name (1398)

úlfblód The submitter claims this is also documented from Bahlow (unknown edition, p.518, s.n. Ulff) meaning "wolf blood". While Ulf(f) appears as a header in Bahlow, we could not find ulflbod anywhere in the entry. We are returning this so that the submitter can clarify the documentation.

Name returned for lack of documentation.

Isabeau d'Aquitaine. Laurel resubmission device. Per pale purpure and sable, a rabbit salient contourny and a bordure argent.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 12/07.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Per pale purpure and sable, a coney courant and a bordure argent, was returned by Laurel 12/07 for conflict, "This is returned for conflict with the device for Sionán Ó Cruimin, Sable, a rabbit statant, a bordure argent: there is a single CD for changes to the field. A rabbit and a coney are the same charge and no difference is granted between courant and statant." Turning the rabbit to sinister clears this conflict.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Leopold Grimm. New device. Per pale sable and gules, an open book argent and overall a sword inverted Or within a bordure embattled argent.

[Name] The submitter's name appears on the 10/31/07 Letter of Intent from Caid.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Mayy bint Khalil. New change of name, release of name and transfer of device, Sable, a pair of wings argent between three estoiles Or.

[Name] The submitter's most recent primary name, Mæva Svansdottir was registered 10/07. (It is not listed in the online O&A, but it is listed on the LoAR.) If the current name is registered, the submitter wishes to retain Mæva Svansdottir as an alternate. Her prior primary name, Medb ingen uí Fháeláin was registered 12/03 and is to be released.

The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will allow minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the language and/or culture, "Arabic".

Mayy is on the list of Arabic feminine names found in "Arabic Naming Practices and Period Names List" by Da'ud ibn Auda. This is a common method of developing a nasab, per the same article.

bint Khalil, "daughter of Khalil", a masculine name found on the list of Arabic masculine names in the same article.

[Armory] In a letter received May 18, 2008, the submitter indicted she has two registered primary names, Medb ingen uí Fháeláin (registered 12/03) and Mæve Svansdóttir (registered 10/07). She has requested that the former be released, the latter, Mæve Svansdóttir is to be retained as an alternate name, and the attached armory, sable, a pair of wings argent between three estoiles Or, be transferred to her soon-to-be-registered name, Mayy bint Khalil.

Name change and transfer of device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Marína Ölvésdóttir. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes and if changes are necessary, she is most interested in the unspecified sound.

Marína is found in Geirr Bassi with no male equivalent on page 13.

{O,}lvésdóttir is a patronymic name, based upon the masculine name {Ọ,}livr (with a dot under the O) found in Geirr Bassi pg 17 and has 9 occurrences. The submitter specifically okays changes to Ølvir, Ølver or ÔlvéR. This name should be corrected to Ölvésdottir, since Geirr Bassi states that final r is deleted and replaced by an s followed by dottir. (p. 17).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Catelin Avenel. Kingdom resubmission device. Per bend gules and argent, a natural tiger argent marked sable and an ivy vine sable leaved gules.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 02/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, with a blazon nearly identical to this one, was returned by Crescent 10/05 for redraw: "We are concerned that any blazon that we can come up with does not adequately describe the vine in this emblazon, especially the triple loop which is important to the submitter. It must be returned for this reason (RfS VII.7.b)." In this emblazon, the ivy branch follows a more-or-less bendwise path with undulations one might expect to see in a length of natural ivy vine. However, this device must also be returned for redraw. The deep curves and the various orientations of the leaves makes the silhouette difficult to discern. A vine of three gentle curves with larger leaves all oriented in the same direction would improve this device.

[Administrative] Greater than two years has passed since the previous return. Therefore, a new submission fee is required per current Caidan practice.

Device returned for lack of identifiability.

Naevehjem, Barony of

Gregory Morgan. New badge. Azure, in pale a crescent and a falcon striking to sinister sustaining a sword bendwise sinister argent.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 08/95. The form indicates that this badge is to be associated with "Striking Falcon", but this name is not registered or submitted with this badge.

[Armory] Given the length of the sword, we believe it should be considered a sustained charge, and therefore, co-primary with the falcon. The crescent is also drawn with approximately equal weight as the falcon. Thus, this design consists of three primary charges, which is prohibited by RfS VIII.1.a (slot machine heraldry). This can easily be fixed by the submitter by drawing the falcon and sword larger to fill the space, leaving the crescent smaller, and thus secondary to the falcon and sword.

Badge returned for non-period style.

Order of Precedence Notes

Secca of Cantia appears in the Order of Precedence under Brett of Altavia and, possibly, Antonio lo Seccante della Rovere.

Mayy bint Khalil – may be in the Oand A as: Mæva Svansdottir or Mæve Svansdóttir

Bibliography

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