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Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the January 13, 2008 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Hrorek Chevron, Thomas Quatrefoil, Marion Coral, Eridana Trident, Damien Sable Fret, and Jared Seraph.

Su is looking for a deputy. The College is looking for a chancellor of the exchequer.

Estrella is coming in February. Consider working at Estrella, and remember to log your hours.

Upcoming meetings are: February 3, 2008, March 9, 2008, April 6, 2008, May 18, 2008 and July 13, 2008. (The March meeting has since been changed to the 2nd, and there is no meeting scheduled for June.)

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the March 1, 2008 Letter of Intent.


Altavia, Barony of

Lynnette Sandoval del Valle de los Unicornios and Timotheus Zacharia von Schloss Zwilling. New jointly owned badge. Purpure, a bezant within eight hands in annulo, fingers outward, Or.

[Name] Lynnette's name was registered 12/84. Timotheus' name was registered 11/87. The submitters' wish this badge to be associated with House Zacharia. Unfortunately, House Zacharias is already registered to Zacharias Flamebeard of Eastmark, 12/91. This badge can be forwarded without the association.

[Armory] The design is a little confusing (some thought it looked like a sun or a fireball), it is probably just acceptable. We believe that this is technically, and visually clear of Purpure, in base a mullet of twelve points Or (Martin of the Fallen Star 11/73) By technical count, there is a complete change of primary charge, addition of secondary charges and non-forced position change. As for X.5 conflict, if Martin's armory is mainly purple with a star in base, then this significantly reduces the similarity between the two designs.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Avina Moncrieffe. New Name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will allow minor but not major changes and if changes must be made she cares most about the language, 13th Century Scots, English. The submitter will accept the alternate spelling of Moncrieff.

Avina is a feminine given name found in R&W (p.20, s.n. Avins) dated to 1221.

Moncrieffe is in Black (p.606, s.n. Moncrief, Moncrieff, Moncrieffe), undated. Closest dated spelling is Moncrieff 1248, while other later spellings are close, esp. Muncrieffe (1551). Given the similar spellings, we believe this should be registerable, though a 13th Century spelling would likely not have the terminal "e". As the submitter did not request changes to make the name authentic for her desired time period, we have not made the change.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Cormac Ó Duinn. Laurel resubmission device. Per bend sinister enarched sable and gules, a bend sinister enarched argent scaly sable.

[Name] This name was registered 12/05.

[Armory] This device was returned by Laurel 07/07 for redraw with the following commentary:

This device is returned for a redraw; the bend sinister should not have such a large arch. In addition, the sinister corner of the bend should issue from the corner of the shield, not the side of the shield. There was commentary concerning this depiction of scaly; we note that the scales are acceptable as drawn. We have a period example of a bend scaly, in the arms of von Tiefenbach, 1605 [Siebmacher, pl.85]. Tiefenbach's bend is about 3 or 4 scales wide, just as the bend in this submission.

This emblazon addresses the problems with the previous one.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Éadaoin inghen Muircheartaigh, Kingdom resubmission device. Azure, a harp reversed Or stringed argent and a ford

[Name] The name appears on the 01/30/08 LoI.

[Armory] The submitter's previous device, Azure a harp Or and a ford, was returned by Crescent 12/2/07 for conflict with Azure, a harp Or stringed argent (Ireland. Important non-SCA arms. 12/94) There is one CD for addition of the ford. We also discussed if there was sufficient difference between a harp and a harp reversed for a CD. The general opinion was that while a harp was not overly asymmetrical, there was sufficient visual difference for a second CD for the change in orientation of harp.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Elizabeth de Grace. Kingdom resubmission device. Per fess vert and sable a demi-sun issuant from the line of division Or.

[Name] The name appears on the 01/30/08 LoI.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, identical to this one, was returned by Crescent 12/07 for conflict with Sable, the upper half of a mullet of four greater and twelve lesser points Or (Kara the Twin of Kelton, 01/97). The submitter now has permission to conflict from Kara (found on reverse of submission form).

Unfortunately, there were additional conflicts not noted on the previous return:

  1. Per saltire vert and sable, a demi-sun Or (Shauna Branwen 10/92,) There is one CD for changes to the field.
  2. Per fess sable and vert, issuant from the line of division a demi-compass-star Or (Mathias Sicco von Hagen 07/82). There is one CD for changes to the field. No difference is given between a demi-compass-star and a demi-sun.
  3. Per cevron azure and vert, a demi-compass star inssuant from the line of division Or (Laurelen Darksbane, 03/85) There is one CD for the field. There is no difference granted between a demi-compass star and a demi-sun and none for showing ¾ of the charge, rather than ½.

We apologize to the submitter for not doing a thorough conflict check on her first attempt.

Device returned for conflict.


Gerald Starremon. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name, will accept minor but not major changes, and cares most about the meaning "from the Stars, of the Stars".

Gerald is found in Withycombe on p. 130 (Gerald) Old German Gairouald, a compound of Ger "spear" and vald "rule". Introduced by the Normans into England and used regularly in the middle ages although not as common as Gerard.

Starremon is found in R&W p. 425 as the header spelling. Margeria Starremon 13207 SRWO "Servent of Star"

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Katheryn Monelyght of Mythomstede. New name and device. Or, on a mullet sable a fountain.

[Name] Submitted as Kathryn Monelyght of Mythomstede. The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept all changes and if changes must be made she cares most about the unspecified meaning.

Kathryn is documented by the submitter from "Feminine Given Names in DES" by Talan Gwynek (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyHZ.html). The submitted spelling does not appear in that article, however R&W dates the spelling "Katheryn" to 1570 (p.127, s.n. Daughters). This is likely the spelling the submitter intended, as it is referenced in Talan's article. We were unable to justify the submitted spelling, so have changed it to match the provided documentation.

Monelyght is found in R&W (p.313, s.n. Moonlight), noting "Robert Monelyght 1442, OE möna lëoht, possibility for someone given to roaming about at night."

Mythomstede is documented from Ekwall, (p.335, s.n. (ge)myþe) [Mithomford Mythomstede 1285]. Meaning 'waters meet', junction of streams.

[Armory] This is clear of Tinctureless, on a mullet a cross crosslet (Astra Christiana Benedict, June '82). There is a CD for fieldless/tinctureless. Given there is a substantial difference between a cross crosslet and a roundel, there is a CD via X.4.J.ii for substantial change in type of tertiary charge on a "simple" design.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Murchadh Monagh Craebi. New name change from Murchadh Garrioch.

[Name] The submitter's current primary name, Murchadh Garrioch, registered 02/04 is to be kept as an alternate name. (The form originally indicated to release the original name, but was changed prior to submission.) Submitter desires a masculine name. He allows minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the language and culture. He requests changes to make the name authentic for "Gaelic, 13th C Scotland", and "the purpose of this submission is to change the last name to reflect the Moncrieff clan, using a wholly Gaelic spelling. Notes on proper pronunciation of the last name would be appreciated." According to the submitting herald, change in spelling of surname is fine.

Murchadh is found in Mari's "Annals Index", located at http://s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Murchad.shtml. This spelling is the Early Modern Irish Gaelic from c1200-1700 genitive form (examples listed date from 1103 to 1500). This is also previously registered to the submitter.

Monagh Craebi, found in Johnstone, James R. Place-Names of Scotland (p.254, s.n. Moncrieff Hill), dated to 728 meaning 'hill with the trees'. We don't know whether this locative surname needs to be put into the genitive, and ask for the College's assistance.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Pelagon Phthius. New name and device. Argent, a winged, two-tailed merman erect affronty head to dexter tails nowed in base, sable, crined gules, vested of mail argent, winged argent, gules and sable.

[Name] Submitted as Pelagon of Phthia. The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will allow all changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about, and requests changes to be, authentic for the language and/or culture, "Ancient Greek – Bronze Age."

Pelagon. The submitter notes that the name is mentioned in the Iliad and was the founder of Pelagonia or Macedon. Lampriere's Classical Dictionary (p.435) lists three men named Pelagon, "a man killed by a wild boar. Ovid. Met. 8, v.360 – A son of Asopus and Metope, [and] a Phocian, one of whose men conducted Cadmus, and showed him where, according to the oracle, he was to build a city."

Phthius. The submitter notes that Phthia is an ancient Greek area mentioned in the Iliad. Lampriere's Classical Dictionary (p.487) lists Phthia, "a town of Phthiotis, at the east of mount Othrys in Thessaly, where Achilles was born, and from which he is often called Phthius heros." From this, we can surmise that Phthius is the genitive form of the name. While "of Phthia" might be acceptable with application of the Lingua Anglica rule, putting this in the Greek genitive will serve the submitter's wishes best. Therefore we have made this change.

[Armory] The device is returned for redraw: The charge must be drawn such that it is completely within the field. The charge is not recognizable as an heraldic merman. It is not tinctured in a standard heraldic fashion, and is impossible to describe accurately in blazon. These are all reasons for return. Also, the submitter is advised not use colored pencils when resubmitting.

[Administrative] We received payment of $20 (check 1772). A refund of $5 will be sent to the submitter.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for redraw.


Dreiburgen, Barony of

Kathleen O'Duncan. New name and device. Or, in bend a thistle slipped and leaved proper and a quatrefoil slipped within a bordure vert.

[Name] The submitter will accept no changes. No other preferences are indicated.

Kathleen is the submitter's legal name. Her California Driver License was examined by the consulting herald, Illuminada Silver Trumpet.

O'Duncan. The submitter did not provide documentation for this element. We've done the best we can: MacLysaght (p.93) writes of Duncan, "a Scottish name sometimes used in Ireland as a synonym of Donegan." MacLysaght (p.85) writes of (O) Dunegan, "The name of several unrelated septs." .Thus, this could be justified as we believe this makes the case for use of O'Duncan, as a "synonym" for (O) Dunegan.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Order of Precedence Notes

Murchadh Monagh Craebi appears in the OP as Murchadh Garrioch.


Bibliography

Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989. [Black]

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names. 4th ed. Oxford University, New York, 1960. [Ekwall]

Johnston, James. B. Place-Names of Scotland. London: John Murray 3rd ed., 1934.

MacLysaght, Edward. The Surnames of Ireland. 6th ed. Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 1985. [MacLysaght]

Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "Annals Index", http://s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Murchad.shtml.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Talan Gwynek "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyintro.html

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

Wright, F. A. Lempriére's Classical Dictionary. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 3rd. ed. 1984.


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