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Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the December 9, 2007 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Cassandre Nicole Loustaunau, Hrorek Chevron, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Thomas Quatrefoil, Marion Coral, Eridana Trident, Damien Sable Fret, Catrin Golden Rose, Tareyn Catrinsdaughter.

Upcoming 2008 meetings are: January 13, February 3, March 9, April 6, May 18, and July 13 (note NO JUNE meeting and scheduled!). [NOTE: March meeting was later changed to March 2]

The College had a great year. The first half was spent working on KWHSS, which resulted in a very successful event.

In the latter half of the year, Crescent and Dolphin focused on adjusting kingdom submission policy to better meet the needs of clients and submitting heralds. This included:

  • a reduction in fees (see below)
  • lengthening of the "free resubmission period" to two years
  • a temporary moratorium on resubmission fees in Q1 2008 (see below)
  • reducing the paperwork requirement to only one outline copy of each armory form
  • allowing submitting heralds to accept cash from submitters and forward in the form of a personal check (as long as this transition is documented at the bottom of the form)

Crescent summarized the September 2007 Laurel Letter of Acceptance and Return.

Starting January, the fee for new submissions will be $8. Primary name and primary device submitted together will be discounted an additional $1, making them $15 total. In January, February and March 2008 we will not be charging for resubmissions, no matter the length of time since the original return.

We discussed notification letters to submitters. The currently-implemented email system, while slick, is too complicated to be continued. We are going to send return receipt requested and request in the message body that the recipient reply to the email. The email will include a request to "Please Reply to this message ..." to indicate that it was successfully received. Crescent suggests including a link to the original LoI or LoAR.

Dolphin wants to put the Herald's Handbook online, to include all Kingdom ceremonies and all Baronial ceremonies. The only one to be left off will be Coronation. In addition, she wants to have a website which can be easily updated by someone on the CoH's staff, instead of relying on the Kingdom webwright. The impetus comes from more and more reliance by the populace on the Kingdom website instead of the Crown Prints for their SCA activity information.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the March 1, 2008 Letter of Intent.


Altavia, Barony of

Ysoude de Rochester. Resubmission kingdom device. Quarterly sable and azure, four fleurs-de-lis in cross within a bordure engrailed argent.

[Name] The submitter's primary name was registered 05/05.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Quarterly sable and azure, four fleurs-de-lis in cross within a bordure argent was returned by Crescent 11/18/07 for conflict with Purpure, a cross flory within a bordure argent (Anne of the Golden City, 12/04). The change in the line of partition on the bordure is sufficient to warrant an additional CD.

No conflicts found.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Anne Ouy. New name.

[Name] Submitter will allow minor but not major changes and desires a name sounding like "Ann No E". She specifically allows the surname "Noue" if Ouy is not registerable.

Anne is found in Withycombe (p.25, header) as the French version of the Hebrew Hannah and was a favorite Byzantine name and brought from France to England in 1218 but was rare until the beginning of the 13th C.

Ouy is found in Dauzat (p.459, header) which says: "peut-être sobriquet d'après un mot familier (oui)" (Translation: Perhaps a sobriquet based upon the familiar word (oui)) The submitter's alternate, Noue, is also in Dauzat (p.453, header) as a toponym, with the comment "(domaine, hameau, anc. fief)" We were not able to translate this note.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Diana de Parkhurst. New Name.

[Name] Submitter desires a feminine name and will allow minor but not major changes.

Diana is the submitter's legal given name as is documented by her driver's license. The name is also found in Withycombe (p.83, header) stating that it was first found in England in 16th C, Diana Luttrell born 1580.

de Parkhurst is a locative byname from a placename found in Bardsley (p.584, s.n. Parkhurst) meaning 'at the wood in the park'. 1581 John Parkehurst, 1610 Robert Parkhurst. We also found de Parkhurst in Reaney & Wilson (p.338, s.n. Parkhurst), dated to 1327.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Éadaoin inghen Muircheartaigh. New Device. Azure, a harp Or and a ford.

[Name] The name was forwarded on Caid's 1/30/08 LoI.

[Armory] This conflicts with Azure, a harp Or stringed argent. (Ireland, important non-SCA arms, 12/94). There is a CD via RfS X.4.e for addition of the secondary charge (ford). The strings of a harp are less than half of the charge, thus the change in string color from white to yellow is insufficient to grant a second CD.

Device returned for conflict.


Edborough Kellie. Resubmission Laurel device. Argent, a cross between in chief two mullets of four points all gyronny of eight Or and azure.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 12/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous device submission, Argent, a cross gyronny of sixteen and in chief two mullets of six points gyronny of twelve Or and azure, was returned by Laurel 04/07 with the comments:

This is returned for dividing a charge into gyronny of sixteen. It has previously been ruled that "In Society heraldry, while fields may be gyronny of as many as 12, charges may be gyronny of no more than 8. (LoAR of 22 March 83) (Katrine Vanora of Maidstone, October, 1992, pg. 26)". Later precedent allows fields of gyronny of sixteen; from the June 1999 LoAR:

Padric O Mullan. Device. Gyronny of sixteen gules and Or, a Celtic cross azure.  The question was raised regarding whether gyronny of sixteen is period, and whether it can be used in the SCA. Papworth's Ordinary of British Armorials, cites an instance from the 12th century, and Martin Schrot's Wappenbuch, a German heraldic treatise shows a 16th century example. Additionally, the LoI mentions a 13th century example. Given this, we will register Gyronny of sixteen in simple cases, but nothing more, barring period evidence.

Barring similar evidence for charges divided gyronny of sixteen, they remain unregisterable.

This re-design addresses the reason for return.

No conflicts found.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Kate Dogberry. New Device. Argent, a griffin passant and on a chief vert three mullets of six points argent.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 05/07.

This does not conflict with Argent, a griffin segreant on a chief vert, three roses argent (Meriel of Dunheved, 03/98). There is a CD for the position of the primary and another for substantial change of tertiaries (X.4.j.ii).

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Nesta Fugelstou. New name.

[Name] Submitter desires a feminine name and allows minor but not major changes.

Nesta is found in Withycombe (p.226, s.n. Nessie). "Nest(a) is a Welch diminutive of Agnes (q.v.) Nesta is recorded in Worcestershire and Gloucestershire as early as 1133."

Fugelestou is found in "Dated Placenames from Lincolnshire" by Gunnvör silfrahárr and Talan Gwynek (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/gunnvor/LincolnshirePlacenames/), dated to 1086. It is from the OE fugol "fowl", and means "the meeting place of the birds". We note that it is pronounced "fowl-stow".

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Oliver Dogberry. New device. Sable, on a pile inverted argent between two dogs combatant each maintaining a sword argent a sprig of three berries sable barbed and slipped vert.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 05/07.

[Armory] This is clear of Sable, on a pile inverted argent, a foxglove purpure slipped and leaved vert (Laurencia des Jardins, 10/97) with one CD for the addition of the secondary dogs, and another CD for the change in type and tincture of the tertiary (purpure flower to sable berries).

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Sabyna of Aydon. Resubmission kingdom device. Per pale argent and azure, three card piques bases to center counterchanged.

[Name] This name appears on Caid's 10/31/07 LoI.

[Armory] Sabyna's most recent submission, with colors reversed from this one, was returned 11/07 for conflict with Per pale azure and argent, three seeblatter counterchanged (Johanna de Glastingburi, 06/07). Switching the colors creates two additional CD's: one for change in tincture of the field, the other for change in tincture of the primary charge group.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Dreiburgen, Barony of

Aulric von Roding. New name and device. Lozengy gules and sable, a cross crosslet Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name and will accept minor but not major changes.

Aulric is found in "Occitan Townspeople in the 14th Century - All Names" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/occitan/occitan-all-names.html) which lists Aulric Saumah.

von Roding is a locative found in Bahlow (p.463) dated to 1269 Header Rödiger, Roding, already 1269 Petrus Roingus in Hbg. German/French names are one step from period practice, but registerable (Amalia Künne, 12/01).

[Armory] This must be returned for using a field divided into greater than four pieces using low-contrast colors. Also, there is a conflict with Azure, a cross botonny fitchy Or. (Launcelot de Westwood, 09/73)

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict and lack of contrast.


Helena von Roding. New name and device. Lozengy of nine vert and purpure, a fluer-de-lis argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name and will accept no major changes.

Helena is found in "Hungarian Feminine Names" by Walraven van Nijmegen (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/magfem2.html#thelist) which cites Helena 1567 Gyertyaszövõ, 1568 Zrínyi.

von Roding is a locative found in Bahlow (p.463) dated to 1269 Header Rödiger, Roding, already 1269 Petrus Roingus in Hbg.

Precedent states that German and Hungarian are registerable (Ilona von Neunhoff, 08/05) but one step from period practice.

[Armory] This must be returned for using a field divided into greater than four pieces using low-contrast colors. Also, there is a conflict with Fieldless, a fleur-de-lis argent (Catelin Parry the Patient 09/97)

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict and lack of contrast.


Micaela de San Sebastián. Kingdom Resubmission name and device. Per pale purpure and vert, a fret argent.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will allow minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the language and/or culture, "Spain". Originally submitted and returned for lack of documentation 09/23/07, additional documentation is provided below.

Micaela is documented from De Felice, "Nomi" (p.262, s.n. Michele) which says that this variant is Spanish in origin, and was made popular in Italy from Bizet's "Carmen". Also found on the St. Gabriel's report #2310, "...<Catalina Micaela> was the name of the daughter of Philip II of Spain, born in 1567. This is the only example of <Michaela> that we found in either Italy or Spain." (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2310+0 from http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/personajes/5676.htm - reference: "Catalina Micaela" (WWW: Ediciones Dolmen, S.L, 2000). http://www.artehistoria.com/historia/personajes/5676.htm)

de San Sebastián is a locative, "from S. Sebastian". The submitter provides documentation from "The History of Donostia-San Sebastian" (http://www.cd.sc.ehu.es./DOCS/book.ss-g/v2/History.s.s.html). The site claims, "In the 11th and 12th centuries, San Sebastián El Antiguo monastery was, for the people of that area, a spiritual center..." This documentation does not claim to use period spellings, so additional documentation to corroborate the spelling is provided by two maps. The first is a map by Johannes Janssonius dated 1650 or 1657 (http://www.usm.maine.edu/~maps/exhibit5/SPE21A.JPG) which marks the place "S Sebastian". Also, Joan Blaeu's "Blaeu's Atlas Maior of 1665" by Peter van der Krogt uses the spelling "S.Seastian" on the map of the Kingdom of Navarra (Barnes & Noble edition p.309). "This map appears in Blau's atlases from 1638 on" (Taschen edition Appendix, p.586).

[Armory] This device conflicts with Per saltire gules and pean, a fret argent (Meredudd Brangwyn 04/97) with only one CD for the different field. There is also a second possible conflict with (fieldless) A fret couped argent (Anézka z Rozmitála 08/03) with the only CD for the field vs. fieldless. There may be a second CD for couping the fret.

Name and approved as documented and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.


Order of Precedence Notes

None.


Bibliography

Bahlow, Hans. Dictionary of German Names. translated by Edda Gentry, University of Wisconsin, Madison: Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, 1967, English version: 2002. [Bahlow/Gentry 2nd]

Bardsley, Charles. W. A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames. London, 1901; Ramsbury, Wiltshire: Heraldry Today. Reprint ed.: 1988

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet. [Dauzat]

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986. [Nomi]

Gunnvör silfrahárr and Talan Gwynek, "Dated Placenames from Lincolnshire" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/gunnvor/LincolnshirePlacenames/)

Juliana de Luna, "Occitan Townspeople in the 14th Century - All Names" (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/occitan/occitan-all-names.html)

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

St. Gabriel's report #2310, <Catalina Michaela> (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2310-0

"The History of Donostia-San Sebastian" (http://www.cd.sc.ehu.es./DOCS/book.ss-g/v2/History.s.s.html)

Van der Krogt, Peter. Blaeu's Atlas Maior of 1665. Taschen GmbH, 2005.

Van der Krogt, Peter. Blaeu's Atlas Maior of 1665. Barnes & Noble Books (by Arrangement with Taschen), 2006.

Walraven van Nijmegen, "Hungarian Feminine Names" (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/magfem2.html#thelist)

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]


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