Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the January 21, 2007 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jul 07 LoAR]

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, John ap Griffin, Bruce Batonvert, Altan Gal exchequer, Maela Caimbeul, Thomas Quatrefoil, Marion Coral, Damion Sable Fret, Honour Grenehart, Edborough Kellie, Eridana Dragotta, Annalia Dragotta and Hrorek Chevron.

Upcoming meetings are: February 11, 2007; March 11, 2007; April 1, 2007; May 6, 2007; June 24, 2007. The final meeting at which old forms will be accepted is April 1. After this date, submissions on old forms are subject to administrative return.

In December 2006 the Honorable Lord Kurt von Arriksleva, Sommelier Pursuivant emeritus passed away. He had been ill for some time, which kept him away from this assembly recently. Nonetheless, he was a valued member of the College, often taking minutes or checking conflict for Jeanne Marie Crescent and being a good friend to all. We will miss him and wish his family and friends the best.

KWHSS is looking for volunteers to work on the website, interface with the hotel, work on merchandising, etc.

The 09/06 LoAR was summarized. The cover letter includes a call for Symposium 2008 bids (it is highly unlikely that Caid will submit one!), a request to submission heralds to send scans of submission forms in packets, a notice that OSCAR is up and running and may soon become the only venue for commentary, and finally a precedent on the default position of three charges above a chevron or per chevron line of division (in fess, though the practice is discouraged).

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the March 21, 2007 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Brangwyne Scrivener de Vitré. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but major changes, but notes that she "would consider dropping of 'Scrivener' if it's the only way to pass the rest of the name (but of course would prefer not to!)." If changes must be made, she cares most about the unspecified sound. She will NOT allow the creation of a holding name.

Brangwyne is found on Talan Gwynek's "Feminine Given Names in a Dictionary of English Surnames" ( The source data for this listing is from R&W (p. 61, s.n. Brangwin), with Adam Brangwyne from the Subsidy Rolls of Suffolk dated to 1283. The authors explain, "Welsh Branwen, Brangwain (f), from bran 'raven' and (g)wen 'fair'. Branwen, daughter of Llyr, is one of the legendary heroines of Wales. In the Trisan legend Brangwain the Fair was the handmaid and companion of Queen Isolde." We also found variants in Morgan & Morgan (s.n. Brangwyn) and Bardsley (s.n. Brandwin). All of these sources cite it as a surname only.

Scrivener is an occupational byname found in R&W (p.396, s.n. Scrivener). Kemma Scriuener is dated to 1311. The meaning (given under the heading Scriven, same page) is "one who writes and copies books, manuscripts, etc.; also a clerk."

de Vitré "of Vitré", a town in Brittany found in Columbia Lippincot Gazeteer of the World (pg. 2041, header). The site has a 14th-15th C. castle known as "Chateau Vitré".

Name withdrawn by submitter.


Virginia Read. New name and device. Per chevron sable and vert, a chevron rompu and in base a fox rampant Or, detailed argent. (line drawing)

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name, will accept all changes and if changes must be made, is most interested in the unspecified sound.

Virginia is found in Withycombe (p.290) dated in this spelling to 1587, as the given name of a girl born in America of English parentage.

Read is found in Bardsley (pg. 639, header) dated in this spelling to 1592, used as a surname which originally meant "the Red".

[Device] We recommend that the submitter draw the chevron steeper and broader. To do so, it may be required to also draw the fox slightly smaller.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Angels, Barony of the

Catherine de la Torre DiVini. Laurel resubmission name and device. Per pale purpure and checky Or and purpure on a chevron argent three golpes.

[Name] The submitter's previous name, "Catherine le Guste" was returned by Laurel 02/06 for conflict. The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept no changes.

The submitter claims all these names are in her family and date back to the 1300's. This is insufficient for documentation of a SCA name element.

Catherine is in Withycombe (p186, s.n. Katharine) which notes that the /h/ is added in the 16th century.

de la Torre is found in R&W (p.451. s.n. Torr) with Martin de la Torre dated to 1242.

DiVini The submitter provided no documentation for DiVini, nor were we successful in adding documentation. As dropping this element is contrary to the submitter's wishes, the name must be returned for lack of documentation of this element (RfS Article II).

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Per chevron purpure and checky purpure and Or, on a chevron argent three ermine spots sable, was returned by Laurel 04/06 for conflict with Earl of Warwick, Checky Or and azure, a chevron ermine. (important non-SCA arms). The change from three ermine spots to three golpes clears this conflict. No additional conflicts were found. Unfortunately, this armory must be returned for lack of a name (AH II.A.1)

Name returned for lack of documentation. Device returned for lack of a name.

Caid, Kingdom of


Caid, Kingdom of. New badge. Azure, a greyhound rampant regardant collared within a bordure embattled argent. (line drawing)

[Name] The group name was registered 02/75. This badge is to be associated with the generic designator "Hounds of Caid Guild". A letter of support, signed by the crown, kingdom seneschal and Crescent Herald confirms the kingdom's desire to register this armory.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Cei Myghchael Wellinton. New badge. (Fieldless) On a hurt a quatrefoil erminois.

[Name] Submitter's name registered 04/85.

[Armory] If registered, this will be the submitter's fourth piece of armory, which is acceptable according to AH I.B "Registration Limit" (one piece of armory, the submitter's original device, was released upon registration of his current device).

In period, cinquefoils or quatrefoils ermine often had one ermine spot on each petal and the ermine spots often "radiated" from the center of the foil, as is the case in this emblazon (though, in period, the ermine tails would usually be situated towards the outside of each petal).

Fieldless badges may not use, as the sole charged primary charge, any charge, which is also a standard medium for heraldic display. This includes escutcheons, lozenges, roundels and billets. Here, the submission blurs the line between whether it is (Fieldless) On hurt a quatrefoil erminois, or Azure, a quatrefoil erminois. The change in emblazon shape to a square on the form does not change this. As before, any fielded armory may be displayed on any standard field shape, regardless of what shape is on the submission form. (Fáelán mac Cathail and Alisandre d'Ambrecourt, 05/04, R-Ansteorra)

We note that Azure, a quatrefoil erminois appears to be clear of conflicts, the submitter might consider submitting this, and, if registered, display the design on a round field.

Badge returned for poor fieldless style.

Cormac Ó Duinn. Kingdom resubmission device. Per bend sinister enarched sable and gules, a bend sinister enarched argent papellony sable.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 12/05.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Per bend sinister gules and sable, a bend sinister scaly between two annulets argent was returned by Crescent 06/05 in part because, "The scales on the bend do not match the depictions of either scaly or papellony in the PicDict or other heraldic texts. As drawn, it is not clearly identifiable (RfS VII.7.b)". As greater than one year has elapsed since the previous return, an additional submission fee is required.

Here, the scaly/papellony treatment is clearer, though still not ideal. As it is drawn with a simple, thin pen, it cannot be seen from any appreciable distance. We are thus returning this again for the submitter to make the treatment bold enough and even enough to be easily recognized.

We note also that, on a bend, a field treatment typically is rotated to match the bend (as though the lower side of the bend is the "bottom" of the treatment and the higher site the "top"), though this is not in itself reason for return.

The submitter is warned that, if the field treatment is simply removed, the resulting design would be in conflict with other, registered devices (Lodhver Ledgrfótr and Cuillean lodbrog Houndstooth). (RfS VIII.3).

Device returned for redraw.

Godfrey of Paxton. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. No other choices are selected.

Godfrey is found in Withycombe (p.136), dated to 1273.

Paxton is found in Ekwall (p.359 s.n. Magna Paxton) dated to 1163. R&W pg. 342 have Richard de Paxton 1251.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Justin Brekleg. New device. Azure, a bend argent between a sun in splendor and a lion rampant Or. (line drawing)

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 11/05.

[Armory] We note the potential, visual conflict with Azure, a bend argent doubly cotissed the interiors of the cotises potent, counter potent Or (Counts de Champagne, Important Non-SCA arms, 12/94). These designs are technically clear with one Clear Difference for change in type of secondary charges and another for change in number of secondary charges. Unfortunately, each pair of cotises in the arms of Champagne combine such that there appears to be only two (fancy) cotises, calling into doubt the second CD for number. For an emblazon of Champagne, see Neubecker, Heraldry: Sources, Symbols and Meaning p.229, lower left. This design does not have "an overwhelming visual resemblance" to the registered arms. It takes only a moment to recognize that they are not the same. Therefore, we are forwarding this device.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Oswyn Goodryke. Kingdom resubmission device. Sable, a fish hauriant embowed argent breathing flames Or.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 03/01.

[Device] We note the badge Sable, a baleen whale hauriant argent, (Balin the Fairhaired, 02/75, reblazoned 08/05). Here, the only rule which could be used to declare these clear is X.2. Setting aside the question of whether there is clear difference between a whale and a fish, there is certainly not substantial difference between them. There is no CD for addition of the flames (though they are drawn admirably well).

Device returned for conflict.

Roland fitzWilliam de Montaillou. New name and device. Per pale Or and azure, a tilting lance throughout argent and a bordure counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes. Roland R&W (p. 384 s..n. Rowland). It is one of the alternate spellings given in the header. In the Chanson de Roland. Also dated to 1303 as a surname Nicholas Roland, found in Wythecombe (p. 256 s.n. Roland), "was a favourite in the middle ages and was introduced into England by the Normans."

fitzWilliam is found in R&W (p.171, s.n. FitzWilliam) in this spelling 1424, also Edmund Fitzwilliam and Rauf le fuiz William 1299.

de Montaillou (from Montaillou). The submitter provides documentation of the place, a stronghold of the Cathars, from "The Perfect Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars" by Stephen O'Shea. "The bleak black majesty of the Pyrenees marks the limit of Languedoc with a towering finality. It was within sight of their summits that such outposts as Montségur and Montaillou witnessed the ultimate stages of the Cathar story."

A similar spelling occurs as a locative surname in Morlet's _...des Noms de Famille_, p. 707, under Montalieu: "n. de localite' d'origine (Is{`e}re), `Montalieu-Vercieu', cant. de Morestel [`Montallieu' XIIIc S.]". Also found in Dauzat & Rostaing, _...noms de lieux_, is "Montlieu, cant. Char.-Mar" on p. 467. On p. 468, "Montaulieu, Dr{o^}me (de Montolio, 1223)". On p. 469, "Montaille', Sarthe (Montaillier, 1330; germ. Agil-hari); Montaillou, Ari{`e}ge (germ. Agilo)". While the submitter's desired spelling is undated, it is similar enough to the acceptable dated spellings to be forwarded.

[Armory] As drawn, the titlting lance is not recognizable. While it is nice that it is bold, the straight sides and lack of detail make this difficult to identify. We recommend consulting the Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry or other heraldic source to see pictures of this charge. Further, it is recommended that the charge be drawn so that it not touching the bordure at the top and bottom. (RfS VIII.4.d – while this rule is designated as excessive modernity, the overall effect is lack of identifibility of the charge.)

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for redraw.

Lyondemere, Barony of

Diego Antonio Vega de Palma. New name and device. Argent, a chevron gules between three trefoils sable.

[Name] Submitted as Diego Martin Antonio Vega de Palma. The submitter will accept all changes and is interested in a masculine name. If the name must be changed, the submitter cares most about language/culture, "1520's Spanish." He also indicated he "will accept dropping 'Martin' if needed".

Diego is a masculine, Spanish name (fourth most popular) found in Elsbeth Anne Roth's "16th Century Spanish Names" ( Diego de Torres (1539)

Martin is found (as Martín) as a masculine, Spanish name (14th most popular). Ibid. Martín Callejo (1560).

Antonio is found as a masculine, Spanish name (8th Most popular). Ibid. Antonio de Medina (1563).

Vega is found (as de la Vega) as a Spanish surname. Ibid. "Lope de la Vega" 1539.

de Palma is found (as de (la) Palma) as a Spanish locative surname. Ibid. Juan de Palma (1571).

Previous precedent suggests that the pattern of five name elements is not registerable in Spanish names. While unlikely in the submitter's period, four element Spanish names appear to be registerable. We have removed the element "Martin" according to the submitter's allowances.

[Armory] This design conflicts with Argent, a chevron gules between two mullets of six points voided and interlaced and a greyhound sable (Cynwrig Cynydd, 08/97). There is a single Clear Difference for change in type of all three secondary charges. (RfS X.4.b)

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.


Ottavia Fortunati. New name and device. Per fess sable and Or, three goblets counterchanged. (line drawing)

[Name] The submitter is interested in a female name. She will accept all changes, if changes must be made, cares most about meaning: "fortune, fortunate, future – study of".

Ottavia is the feminine form of Ottavio, an Italian given name found in de Felice Nomi (pp. 292-293).

Fortunati is an Italian byname meaning "Fortunate". It is found in de Felice Cognomi (p.127, s.n. Fortuna) ("fomati o derivati da fortuna 'sorte, destino', inteso in senso positive, cioè buona fortuna, destino favorevole, felice.").

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Raphael ben Gideon. New name and device. Argent, on a card pique sable a lion couchant queue-fourché, maintaining a sword argent. (line drawing)

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the unspecified sound.

Raphael is found in Withycombe (pg. 250, header) dated to the 16th C in England and earlier in Italy.

ben Gideon is Hebrew, "son of Gideon". Gideon is found in Withycombe (pg. 133, header). It is undated in English use, but the author indicates that the name became popular with the Puritans and the French Huguenots, so presumably this applies to the early 17th C. We also note that Raphael is the son of Gideon ben Levi (03/85), though documentation of the relationship was not provided.

Both name elements also date to antiquity in Jewish culture, both being mentioned in the Old Testament / Torah.

[Device] We believe that these arms are clear of (Fieldless) On an oak leaf sable a mullet of four points argent, (Anton Winteroak, 05/85). Laurel precedent grants a significant difference between a card pique and a crabapple leaf (Quentin de Rougemont, 11/03). We believe that a similar significant difference should exist between an oak leaf and a card pique. The other clear difference is for the addition of the field.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Raphael ben Gideon. New household name, Inn of the Crimson Spade and badge. (Fieldless) A card pique gules. (line drawing)

[Name] The submitter's name appears above. The submitter will accept no changes.

Crimson is cited in the OED as the color red dated to 1462 (pg. 1175).

Spade is cited in the OED as a card suit dated to 1598 (pg. 2936), and dates to pre-conquest meaning, "a shovel".

We believe that this is a reasonable name for an inn. A red shovel is something that could be painted on a sign. We note that English Sign Names by Mari Elspeth nic Bryan (Kathleen M. O'Brien) ( lists a few inns named after tools (Bell, Hammer, Horn and Sword) as well as several of the pattern color+animal (Greyhorse, Red Lyon…).

[Device] This submission is clear of (Fieldless) A seablatt inverted gules (Merouda Pendray, 03/97). Laurel ruled that there should be a difference between a card pique and a seeblatt inverted (Quentin de Rougemont, 11/03), The other clear difference is for fieldlessness.

Household Name and badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Order of Precedence Notes

Diego Antonio Vega de Palma appears in the Order of Precedence as Diego Martin Antonio Vega..

Inn of the Crimson Spade appears in the Order of Precedence as Crimson Spade, House of the.

Raphael ben Gideon appears in the Order of Precedence as Raphael ben Gideon.


Bardsley, Charles. W. A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames. London, 1901; Ramsbury, Wiltshire: Heraldry Today. Reprint ed.: 1988

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986. [Cognomi]

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986. [Nomi]

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names. 4th ed. Oxford University, New York, 1960. [Ekwall]

Elsbeth Anne Roth, "16th Century Spanish Names",

O'Shea, Stephen, "The Perfect Heresy: The Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars", September 2001, Walker & Company, ISBN-10: 0802776175

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Talan Gwynek "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames"

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer