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Minutes of the December 3, 2006 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

[Note: These submissions appear on the May 07 LoAR]

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Altan Gal exchequer, Cassandra Nicole Loustaunau, Maela Caimbeul, Thomas Quatrefoil, Marion Coral, Aran Darkhelm, Honor Grenehart, Leonardo Geminiano, Damian Sable Fret, Santine Gold Forest, and Eridana Ambra Dragotta.

Upcoming meetings are: January 21, 2007; February 11, 2007; March 11, 2007; April 1, 2007; May 6, 2007; June 24, 2007.

Please begin using the new forms as soon as possible. The last meeting at which old forms will be accepted will be April 1. As of the May 6 meeting, submissions on old forms are subject to administrative return.

Unfortunately for us, but fortunately for her, Santine Gold Forest will be leaving Caid soon. Gyldenholt must stop exporting promising heralds! Santine has been of great service to her barony and the College, and we will miss her cheery and organized presence at these meetings.

Thank you to Eridana and Aran for volunteering to inventory the college library. Also thanks to Aran for volunteering to mail out forms to territorial heralds.

The Caidan registrations and returns on the 08/06 LoAR were discussed.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the January 24, 2007 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Robyn FitzOsbern. Laurel resubmission name.

[Name] Submitted as Robyn fitzOsbern. The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept all changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the sound.

The submitter's previous submission, Robyn Foxle was returned by Laurel 06/06 for conflict with Robin of Locksley. The change in the surname clears this conflict.

Robyn is a masculine name found in Withycombe (pg. 254, s.n. Robert). The entry notes Robyn Coventry Mysteries 15th C, as well as Robin from the Curia Rolls, dated to 1200. R&W (pg. 331, s.n. Robert) dates the submitter's spelling Robyn as a surname in 1279.

FitzOsbern is the surname of a companion of William the Conqueror according to "The Domesday Book Online" (

FitzOsbern, Earl William -

Also Earl of Hereford. Son of Osbern Sieward of Normandy; brother of Osbern, Bishop of Exeter. Married Adeline, sister of Ralph de Tosny. Large estates in west and Isle of Wight, broken up when his son, Roger, rebelled. Regent, with Odo of Bayeux, 1067.

R&W (pg. 331, s.n. Osborn) dates the submitter's spelling Osbern as a surname in 1260. Other spellings of Osborn are dated into the 15th C.

All of our documentation, including R&W under Fitz, shows the patronymic being capitalized. We have changed the submitted spelling to match the supplied documentation.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Alexis Tishtar Shivatir. New name and device. Azure, on a pale argent a cat statant affronty, head to dexter sable.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will minor but not accept major changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the language and culture listed as "Ancient, 300 BC Persian".

Alexis is the submitter's legal middle name, copy VA driver's license is provided. This is reasonable for use as a registered given name according to RfS II.4 as Alexis is of the style of a given name.

Tishtar is found on, which is a list of Zoroastrian names. The site states that this is the name of the constellation we call Sirius, that it is the name of an angel, and that it is the name of the 13th day of each month, and of the 4th month. Concerning the names listed, the author writes:

From Dosabhai Framji Karaka, History of the Parsis I, London 1884. pp. 162-3. According to Karaka this is "an almost complete list of names of Parsi men and women in general use at present. Those of Hindu origin are marked with asterisks, and the rest are Persian names."

Shivatir is found on the same website as the previous name, on a page about the Festival of Tiragan, with the implied meaning "Of the Swift Arrow" (

We are unable to justify this construction as a viable feminine Zoroastrian name.

[Device] This conflicts with Azure, on a pale argent between a rapier proper and a needle argent threaded Or, a cat rampant sable, (Audrey Fletcher, 04/98). The change in posture only of the tertiary cat is insufficient to warrant a second clear difference according to X.4.j.i or X.4.j.ii.

In addition to this, the cat is not heraldically recognizable, nor is its posture blazonable, which is also grounds for return. We request the submitter redraw the cat in a heraldic style and posture.

Name returned for lack of documentation. Device returned for conflict.

Kate Dogberry. New name.

[Name] The submitter will accept minor but not major changes. No other boxes are checked.

Kate is found in Withycombe (p.186, s.n. Katherine) "in the 16th and 17th C Kate was the common diminutive. Kate Coventry Mysteries 15th C."

Dogberry was a constable in William Shakespeare's 'Much Ado about Nothing', first performed between 1598 and 1599 according to the British Library at We believe this name is the character's surname.

The Compact OED, (first edition with supplement, volume I, p.782) lists dogberry 1) the 'berry' or drape of the Wild Cornel or Dogwood. 2b) Applied locally in Britain to the Guelder Rose, the Bearberry, and the fruit of the Dog-rose (Britten & Holland). Citations date to as early as 1551. Evidence of a pattern of trees used as surnames can be inferred from R&W: Oak (p. 327), Hawthorne (p.224), Woodberry (p.499), Thornberry (p.444) and Ashbery (p.15).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Róis inghean uí Fhlaithbheartaigh. Kingdom resubmission device. Argent, an ash tree proper and on a chief nebuly gules, two bees argent marked sable.

[Name] Registered 05/02.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Argent, an ash tree proper and on a chief embattled azure three bees argent was returned by Crescent 09/06 for conflict with Argent, a tree proper and on a chief embattled azure three plates (Bergois Thorgrimmsdóttir, 07/01). The change in color of the chief provides the necessary additional clear difference.

The submitter is advised to draw the chief a bit narrower, so the tree does not appear so stunted.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

William Rumbellow, New name.

[Name] The submitter will accept minor but not major changes and has marked no other boxes.

William is found in Withycombe (p293, s.n. William) "one of the commonest men's names (from 16-19th C)"

Rumbellow is found in R&W (p386, s.n. Rumbellow) The closest dated spelling is "Aston (Warwicks) Rumbelowe 1461."

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Summergate, Canton of (Calafia)

Arion Hirsch von Schutzhundheim and Julianna Nueneker Hirsch von Schutzhundheim. New Badge. Azure, two scarpes between two crosses of Jerusalem argent.

[Name] Both names registered by Laurel 6/92.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Ránulfr þorfinnsson. Kingdom resubmission device. Vert, a horse courant dismembered argent, between two axes in chevron blades to center Or and a flame proper.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 04/05.

[Armory] This device was returned by Crescent 9/24/06 to be redrawn in a more period style and returned again 11/19/06 meeting, for too many charges in the primary charge group (RfX VIII.A.1). This emblazon fixes the problems of the earlier submissions. While not entirely period in appearance, we believe it is registerable.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Dun Or, Barony of

Faoileann inghean Dhaibhead, New name.

[Name] The submitter will allow minor,but not major changes. The submitter is interested in a16th C Irish / Gaelic name, but does not request changes for authenticity.

Faoileann is a feminine Irish given name found in OCM (pg. 93, header).

ingheanDhaibhead is Gaelic for, "Daughter of David". Dhabhead is a masculine given name, lenited from the form found in OCM (pg. 70, s.n. Dauíd; Daibhead). "A borrowing of the biblical name David which was introduced to Ireland by the Anglo-Normans and which became a common name amongst the Burkes." Woulfe says that the genitive is the same as the nominative (pg. 179, s.n. Daibhid), though it's unclear if that applies to the spelling from OCM.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Isibéal inghean Dhaibhead, New Name

[Name] The submitter will accept minor, but not major changes. She expressed interest in 16th Century Gaelic (Irish) but did not request changes to improve authenticity.

Isibéal is found in OCM p. 165 – s.n. Sibéal,Isibéal Isabel, the medieval French form of Elizabeth, first appeared in England in the twelfth century and became extremely popular. It was brought to Ireland by the Anglo-Normans, Also found in Woulf pg 53. s.n. Isabella, Isibéal, undated.

ingheanDhaibhead is Gaelic for, "Daughter of David". Dhabhead is a masculine given name, lenited from the form found in OCM (pg. 70, s.n. Dauíd; Daibhead). "A borrowing of the biblical name David which was introduced to Ireland by the Anglo-Normans and which became a common name amongst the Burkes." Woulfe says that the genitive is the same as the nominative (pg. 179, s.n. Daibhid), though it's unclear if that applies to the spelling from OCM.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Ruadh mac Gavin mec Dhomhnuill. Kingdom resubmission device. Chevronny inverted azure and argent a ram's head couped and a border sable.

[Name] The submitter's name was forwarded to Laurel on the September 20, 2006 Caid Letter of Intent.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Chevronnelly inverted argent and azure, a ram's head couped sable was returned by Crescent 08/06 for conflict with Quarterly purpure and argent, a ram's head cabossed sable, armed Or (Riordan Robert MacGregor, 12/92). The addition of the bordure clears this conflict.

This is clear of Checky Or and vert, a bull's head cabossed, a bordure sable (Sirideán ua Néall, 04/95) with one clear difference via RfS X.4.a for complete change in field and a second CD via X.4.e for change from a bull's head to a ram's head.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Conchobhar Mac Cionaioith. New name and device. Per pale sable and vert, a Celtic cross argent and on a chief argent a triquetra between two equal armed Celtic crosses vert.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept minor, but not major changes. If changes must be made, he is most interested in language and culture (not specified). He will not accept a holding name.

Conchobhar is found in OCM (p57, s.n. Conchobar: Conchobhar, Conchur) as a masculine name, "Perhaps, meaning 'wolf-lover, lover of hounds'.  Conchobar is one of the most favoured Irish names and is especially popular in the later middle ages and early modern period."

Mac Cionaioith is a byname found in Woulfe (p.331, s.n. Mac Cionaodha, Mac Cionaoith), "'son of Cionaodh'; the name of a family who, though belonging to the southern Ui Neill, were chiefs of the barony of Trough in the north of Co. Monaghan..."

We believe this is clear of: Conor mac Cinneide (1/87) because Cinneide has three syllables, while Cionaioith has only two.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Naevehjem, Barony of

Alexander Krieger. New name.

[Name] Submitter will allow minor, but not major changes. No other choices are indicated.

Alexander is a masculine given name found in Bahlow/Gentry, (pg. 10, s.n. Alexander). The author states that during the Crusades, the character of Alexander the Great became popular and appeared in MHG poetry, "e.g. Lamprecht's Song of Alexander around 1130".

Krieger is also found in Bahlow/Gentry, (pg. 315, s.n. Krieger) as an epithet meaning "quarreler".

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Guendolen uxor Alexander. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name authentic for 13th C. Welsh. She will allow all changes, and if changes must be made, she cares most about the meaning.

Guendolen is a Welsh feminine given name ruled SCA-Compatible in this spelling.

The name is certainly quite common in the SCA: in one spelling or another it has been registered to more than 50 different people. Given this level of popularity, I am reluctant to ban the name outright despite the lack of any real justification for it. I am equally reluctant to extend the allowance to modern forms of the name, however. Therefore the name will henceforth be considered 'SCA-compatible' in the forms Guendolen and Gwendolen but not the modern Gwendolyn, and the underlying principle will be extended to any other forms that are proposed. (08/95 Cover Letter)

As an SCA compatible name, this is one step from period practice. As such, it may be impossible to satisfy the submitter's request for an authentic name. Withycombe (p.140, s.n. Guendolen) indicates it is a Welsh name that came into use in English in the 19th century. Withycombe is unreliable for documentation of non-English names.

uxor Alexander is a Latin element meaning "Alexander's wife". Withycombe (p. 13, s.n. Alexander) dates the name to 1189, 1273, 1284, 1316. In support of the construction, Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's article "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names" ( notes, "Women have an additional type of popular byname -- being identified as the wife of their husband (using Latin uxor in this document) -- which is similar in concept to a patronym." Also, Tangystyl notes, "After Latin relationship words, the following name is sometimes given a Latin posessive form -- usually -i at the end of the name. However many examples are found where the following name is unchanged.' Given this, we are not sure if Alexander should be left as is, or should be put into the genitive form. We have chosen to leave it in the submitted form.

Name approved and forwarded for Laurel.

Starkhafn, Barony of

Rouge Anne Marie du Maurier. Appeal of Laurel return of name and kingdom resubmission device. Per saltire argent and sable, a Maltese cross counterchanged.

[Name] Submitter does not care about the gender of the name. The submitter marked on the form that she would accept minor, but not major changes, and further specified "...will allow some minor changes, including accents over letters, and any necessary changes to 'du' (de, le, etc.)" The submitter also attached a Post-It note to the form which reads in part, "I requested 'Submitter will allow minor changes' be lined out except accents. Please no – le – la – or de. I wish it registered as submitted." We have altered the form according to the submitter's note.

This name was returned 01/96 though it appeared then as "Rouge Anne Marie de Maurier". The change to the article was a typo on the part of the Caid College of Heralds of the time. She had, indeed submitted "du Maurier" with no changes allowed. The text of this return is as follows:

No evidence has been presented to support French use of prefixed nicknames other than gros 'large' and petit 'small', whose use is inferred from such extant surnames as Grosclaude and Petitjean. The widespread surnames Rouge and Lerouge clearly indicate that the epithet rouge was used, but we need evidence for this unusual placement before we can register it. We would have dropped the problematic element, but she allows no changes, so we must return the name. (LoAR 01/96 returns)

The text then goes on to discuss why the submitter's documentation for "Rouge" as a given name was inadequate.

The submitter appeals this decision according to AH IV.E. She provides new documentation supporting the registration of Rouge as her given name according to II.4 – Legal Names. Since the previous return, she has acquired an "Also Known as (AKA) Professional Name" in the state of Nevada. This is documented by a copy of "Affidavit of Publication" filed Marcy 25, 2005. The name created is "ROUGE ANNE DuMAURIER". The Caid College of Heralds accepts this documentation as proof she has the legal given name "Rouge". Previously, Jeanne Marie Crescent had sought the advice of François la Flamme on this subject who agreed with the documentation's validity.

Rouge is the submitter's documented legal given name. Use of the legal name is one step from period practice.

Anne is a second given name found in Dauzat (p.10, s.n. Anne). "n. de bapt.: n. biblique (mère de la Vierge)" (a baptismal name with biblical origins (the mother of The Virgin)).

Marie is a metronymic found in Dauzat (p.416, s.n. Marie). "n. de bapt. très répandu, et matronyme (le plus frequent de tous)" (widespread baptismal name and metronymic, (the most frequent of all metronymics)). It is found as a surname in "French Surnames from Paris 1421, 1423 & 1438" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael ( The addition of this element clears the potential conflict with the submitter's legal name.

du Maurier is a surname meaning "from 'la Maurier'". As a surname, Maurier is found in Dauzat (p.424, s.n. Maurier, Mauriès) "(n. du Midi), var. probables de Maurier, Mauriès" (name from Midi (region) Probably a variant of Maurier, Mariès [we are not completely confident in this translation]).

Double Given names are registerable in French, Double Surnames are also registerable in French. Is the use of both patterns in a single name an additional step from period practice? Having no precedents to work from, we are forwarding this name as-is.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, identical to this one, was returned by Crescent 02/96 for lack of a name.

This is clear of Per saltire argent and sable, a cross doubly pummeled gules (Petros Monomachos 11/98) There is a CD between a cross botany and a Maltese cross (see Andro Bruce 10/96) and another for change in color of primary charge.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Wintermist, Shire of

Katryn Brynsdotter. New change of name from Katrín Brjánsdóttir.

[Name] The submitter's current primary name was registered 12/99. The submitter requests that this name be released upon registration of her new name. The submitter will allow no changes.

Katryn is a proposed alternate spelling of the attested medieval Swedish feminine given name Katrin which is listed in Aryanwhy merch Catmael's "Swedish Feminine Names from SMP" in the S. Gabriel library ( "Katrin 1357 (Gamal), 1397 (Hakon), 1403 (Barnam), 1456 (Bryniolf), 1467 (Birgher)". Though we cannot find "Katryn" in this specific spelling, we see that the list, which is headed "Katerine" (1333 to 1493) also gives "Kateryne" dated 1224. Here is evidence that "i" could be interchangeable with "y" in this location in the spelling of the name. In addition, I. Fornavne's "Danmarks Gamle Personnavne" lists other variants such as Kattryn 1466, Kattryn 1485, Katryna 1490, Kateryn 1490 and Kateryn 1498

Brynsdotter is a proposed Swedish feminine patronymic formed from the masculine given name, Bryn, dated to 1482 under the header, Brun, in Sveriges medeltida personnamn (SMP), H{a:}fte 4, column 507 (, "Bryn Swenson". [This name also appears in Danish records as an unmarked patronymic in Knudsen, Vol. II, Tildnavne, column 146, as Johannes Bryn 1416, Gert Bryn, and Bæynt Bryn 1476; see attached.]

In her article cited above, Aryanwhy states with regard to feminine Swedish surnames:

One of the most common types of surname for a late-period century Swedish woman is a patronymic byname, a byname that indicates who her father is. Feminine patronymic bynames are formed by adding -dotter or -dotther to the genitive (possessive) form of the bearer's father's name, e.g., Birgitta Petherssdotther 1515 or Birgitta Laurinssa dotter ca. 1520.

We have put Bryn into the genitive and added -dotter to form Brynsdotter.

We have no evidence that Bryn/Brun which Geirr Bassi glosses as brow and Brian/Brien Celtic, which means high or noble are related, so we believe this is clear of: Catherine O'Brien 4/03.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Order of Precedence Notes

Katryn Brynsdotter appears in the OP as "Katrín Brjánsdóttir".

Rouge Anne Marie du Maurier appears in the OP as "Rouge Anne Marie Du Maurier".


Aryanhwy merch Catmael, "French Surnames from Paris 1421, 1423 & 1438",

Aryanwhy merch Catmael, "Swedish Feminine Names from SMP",

Bahlow, Hans. Dictionary of German Names. translated by Edda Gentry, University of Wisconsin, Madison: Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, 1967, English version: 2002. [Bahlow/Gentry 2nd]

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet. [Dauzat]

"The Domesday Book Online",

Fornavne, I.,"Danmarks Gamle Personnavne"

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Olney, MD: Studia Marklandica, 1977. [Geirr Bassi]

Knudsen, Vol. II, Tildnavne

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Sveriges medeltida personnamn,

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, "A Simple Guide to Constructing 13th Century Welsh Names",

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967. [Woulfe]

Zoroastrian names,

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