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Minutes of the October 22, 2006 College of Heralds Meeting

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[Note: These submissions appear on the Apr 07 LoAR, except Ivan Batu, which was pended and appears in the Nov 07 LoAR (mistakenly under the Kingdom of the Middle)]

(Note: A meeting was also held on Oct. 29 at Collegium Caidis.)

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Hrorek Chevron, Maela Caimbeul, Thomas Quatrefoil, Marion Coral, Leonardo Geminiani, Aran Darkhelm, Honor Grenehart, Eirikr Gold Phoenix, Elisabeth Goodchilde, and Éowyn Amberdrake.

Upcoming meetings are: November 1, 2006 and December 3, 2006. After the December meeting is the traditional College of Heralds Holiday Party. If you wish to participate in the gift exchange, bring a wrapped, unmarked gift of approximately $20 value.

A major revision of kingdom law is in the works. New kingdom law must be proclaimed at a kingdom event, and this is scheduled for Calafia Anniversary. As the revision is throughout the Booke of Law, essentially the whole thing will need to be read aloud. Therefore, I am looking for volunteers to take turns reading sections of law.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the November 22, 2006 Letter of Intent.

Calafia, Barony of

Jessica the Clark. Kingdom resubmission device. Argent, a cat sejant regardant sable and in base three roses purpure barbed and seeded proper.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 06/03.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Argent, a domestic cat sejant regardant sable and in base three roses purpure barbed and seeded proper alternating with two hazel leaves vert (in an unblazonable position) was returned by Crescent for redraw in 06/03. The submitter has followed Crescent's advice, including lightening of the shade of purple on the roses.

As greater than one year has elapsed since the previous return, a fee is required by Caid for this resubmission.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Summergate, Canton of (Calafia)

Dierdre Mac Cárthaigh. New name.

[Name] Submitted as Dierdre macCarthaigh. The submitter will accept all changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the meaning: "Dierdre = she who chatters, macCarthaig = loving".

Deirdre is an SCA compatible name, which is one step from period practice. ("Note: while the name Deirdre has been ruled SCA compatible, Black's Surnames of Scotland, in the spelling Deredere has a citation from 1166." Deirdre Wydeville, 01/99)

Mac Cárthaigh is from MacLysaght (p. 39 s.n. Mac Carthy, Mac Cárthaigh). The chief family of the Eoghanacht and one of the leading septs of Munster, prominent in the history of Ireland from the earliest times to the present. The name was changed to match the documented form Mac Cárthaigh.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

Dietrich Eckhart von Katzenburg. Kingdom resubmission device. Per pale azure and sable, a catamount passant guardant Or between three cat's pawprints argent.

[Name] The submitter's name appears on the 09/20/06 Letter of Intent from Caid.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Per pale azure and sable, a cat passant guardant Or was returned for multiple conflicts of the nature of Gules, a lion passant guardant Or. The addition of the cat's paw prints adds the necessary second clear difference, though the use of animal prints is one step from period practice.

This must be returned to fix the colored emblazon which blurs the distinction between heraldic tinctures (AH IV.C.1). The azure appears purple, the Or appears green, and the argent is too grey. We suggest that the submission be hand-colored with Crayola markers rather than using problematic color copies. Argent should be left paper-white. Dolphin has provided a new line-drawing for the submitter's use.

Device returned for redraw.

Dietrich Eckhart von Katzenburg. New Badge. (Fieldless) Three pawprints one and two sable.

[Name] The submitter's name appears on the 09/20/06 Letter of Intent from Caid.

[Armory] This badge is drawn on a Fieldless Badge form and there is no note that the submitter desires the badge to have a field. Fieldless armory must have all elements connected, unlike this design. This is returned per RfS VIII.5.

Badge returned for poor fieldless style.

Ivan Batu. New name and device. Argent, three wolves courant sable and on a chief gules three arrows palewise argent.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will allow all changes, and if the name must be changed, cares most about the meaning, which he believes to be "Ivan the Loyal"

Ivan is the submitter's legal name as documented by a copy of his CA driver's license.

Batu is documented as a Mongolian name from "Mongolian Naming Practices Revisited" by Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy (Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, Tir Ysgithr, A.S. XXXIII, p.174), which glosses it as: true, loyal, and confident.

Potentially, this name has a lingual mix of Russian and Mongolian. We know of no previous ruling on the registerability this combination according to RfS III.1. We believe that the submitter's appeal to the legal name allowance (RfS II.4) makes the question moot. Recent rulings suggest that names documented using this rule are considered "neutral" regarding language or time period, though they are one step from period practice ("when a submitter uses his or her legal given name, the element is generally considered language-neutral in terms of additional steps from period practice." Ian Michael Hudson, 07/05 LoAR).

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Ivan Batu. New badge. Per bend gules and argent a wolf courant sable between in pale two arrows counterchanged.

[Name] Submitter's name appears above.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel

Summergate, Canton of. Kingdom resubmission change of branch arms. Per chevron Or and azure, two laurel wreaths vert and in base on a sun Or a portcullis azure.

[Name] The group name was registered 12/83.

[Armory] The canton's current device, Per chevron Or and vert, two laurel wreaths vert and in base on a sun Or a corral gate proper was registered 12/83. A " Petition for Registration of Group Name and Device" including the above blazon and attached emblazon has been signed by officers of the group and attached. (No change of name indicated or desired)

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gallavalley, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Illuminada Eugenia de Guadalupe y Godoy. Appeal of Laurel return of name change from Islyle le Gannocker de Gavain.

[Name] The submitter's primary name was registered 02/82. Submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept no changes. If this name is registered, she wishes to have her current name, Islyle le Gannocker de Gavain (registered 09/81), retained as an alternate. This name was originally submitted as an alternate name and returned by Laurel 03/04 with the comment:

Illuminada and Iluminada are not interchangable (sic) in Spanish, since ll and l are considered separate letters in that language. No documentation was provided for this name spelled with ll. We would change the given name to the documented form Iluminada, but the submitter will not allow any changes. This name must, therefore, be returned.

Later, the submitter appealed this decision, though at this time the submission was for a name change. It was also returned by Laurel 08/05 with the following notes:

This is an appeal of the return of this name in May 2004. The name was originally returned because "Illuminada and Iluminada are not interchangable (sic) in Spanish, since ll and l are considered separate letters in that language. No documentation was provided for this name spelled with ll."

Although the submitter has provided some examples from Arana de Love of names spelled with l and ll, according to Siren, the data the submitter presents for the interchangeability of <l> and <ll> does not address usage before 1600. as Arana de Love, Nombres Propios Espa{n~}oles is a modern baby name book.

Precedent states:

Sabina was documented as a header spelling in Francisca Arana de Love, Nombres Propios Espa{n~}oles, (p. 323) which gives it as the name of a 4th C martyr. This source should be used with care. Clarion explains:

Unfortunately, Arana de Love does not distinguish between names found in Spain and names found elsewhere. In this case, Sabina appears to be the name of an early Roman saint. I was unable to find the name in either Portugal or Spain. (Sabina de Bragan{c,}a, 07/02)

Siren notes that "there is some limited evidence of a few names in [Juliana de Luna's] Isabel article* using both l and ll. The complication in interpreting them is that an initial Ll is a reasonable spelling in Catalan, but is not found elsewhere. This leaves one example, Julian and Jullian that might support her assertion. However, one name does not a pattern make." Barring further evidence that this pattern is reasonable before 1600, this name cannot be registered.

* Siren erroneously refers here to "De Love's Isabel article". Crescent believes she is instead referring to "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century: Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly 1483-1504)" by Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith) found at

Here the submitter has not adequately provided additional documentation for the problematic spelling or that the name was not considered properly in the previous return. The new documentation would be adequate to document a resubmission for "Illuminata Eugenia de Guadalupe y Godoy" as an Italian/Spanish mixed name.

Appeal returned for lack of documentation.

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Elisabeth Goodchilde. New device. Pean, a stag trippant erminois.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 03/01.

[Armory] This submission was pended from the September 2006 meeting. If this is registered, the submitter asks that her previous device, Purpure, a unicorn passant and in chief three eagle's heads erased argent all armed Or (Registered 12/01) be retained as a badge.

This is clear of Fahd Lonewold (7/84) Pean, a wolf passant reguardant erminois maintaining in upraised dexter forepaw a kris Or, according to RfS X2. We believe there to be a substantial difference between a wolf and a stag.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Noe College (Lyondemere)

Cormac Mór. Transfer of badge to Fithir Maidhaigh. Sable, an open book argent between three pairs of torches in saltire argent flamed Or.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 02/03. The recipient's name appears below.

[Armory] This badge was registered in 02/03 and converted from device to badge in 05/04. A letter authorizing the transfer is included.

Unfortunately, since the recipient's name is returned below, she cannot accept the transfer of this armory. (AH II.A & D)

Transfer returned for administrative reasons.

Cormac Mór. New badge. [Fieldless] A bear's head erased proper.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 02/03.

[Armory] The submitter includes a letter from Duncan Graeme to conflict with his armory, Tierced per pall azure, or, and argent, overall a grizzly bear's head erased proper. [Ursus horribilis] (registered 08/79).

Unfortunately, this submission puts the submitter over the armory registration limit (AH I.B) as the simultaneous transfer of one of his badges above is returned.

Badge returned for administrative reasons.

Fithir Maidhaigh. New name and acceptance of transfer of armory. Sable, an open book argent between three pairs of torches in saltire argent flamed Or.

[Name] The submitter will accept all changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound, "Fear Me."

Fithir is from OCM (p. 104, s.n. Fithir). The authors note, "In Irish story Fithir was the daughter of the legendary king Túathal Techtmar. We have not found documentation showing this name is anything other than a legendary name, and is returned for this reason. (RfS I.3)

Maidhaigh is the Gaelic spelling found in MacLysaght (p.212, s.n. "Mee").

[Armory] This is a transfer of armory from Cormac Mór. Lacking a primary name, the submitter cannot accept transfer of armory. (AH II.A & B)

Name returned for presumption. Armory returned for lack of a name.

Western Seas, Barony of

Donnel Stewart. Kingdom resubmission name.

[Name] The submitter will accept minor but not major changes. No other preferences are indicated. The submitter's previous name submission, Donnel Stewart Davinsson was returned 09/06 for undocumented use of double surname. The removal of the second surname fixes this problem.

Donnel The submitter documented this spelling with S. Gabriel report 1435 which indicates, "<Donnel> is a Scots or English spellings of the Gaelic name <Domhnall>" with this reference referring back to Black. The college found: Donnel is the Anglicized spelling of the Gaelic Domhnaill (pg. 499, Woulfe), where the author lists one Eigheachan, father of Domhnall. Black confirms this (pg. 214ff, s.n. Donald). Withycombe (pg. 86, Donald) states, “Gaelic Domhnall (pronounced Dawnal), from Old Irish Domnall... It is one of the commonest Highland Christian names and Donal is much used in Ireland, often as an equivalent of Daniel.”

Stewart is found in R&W (pg. 427, s.n. Steward), dated to 1327 in this spelling. It is also in Black (pg. 747, header).

We note the potential conflict with Stewart, Sir Donald Martin (1824-1900), from the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, (vol. xxv, pg. 913). He was a British field marshal, with a long career in India beginning with the India Mutiny in 1857 and culminating as commander-in-chief of the British forces in India in 1881. In the online Encyclopedia Britannica, he is not listed. Given this, he may no longer be important enough to be protected.

We also note that the online EB does list Stewart, Donald Ogden (1894-1980), "American humorist, actor, playwright, and screenwriter who won a 1940 Academy Award for his screenplay adaptation of The Philadelphia Story." ( This is indeed more contemporary, but listing in EB Online alone is not reason for protection. We are forwarding this name for the college to further consider these potential conflicts.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, (vol. xxv, pg. 913)

Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989. [Black]

Juliana de Luna (Julia Smith), "Spanish Names from the Late 15th Century: Names from the Account Books of Isabel la Catolica (1477-1504, mostly 1483-1504)",

MacLysaght, Edward. The Surnames of Ireland. 6th ed. Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 1985. [MacLysaght]

Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy ,"Mongolian Naming Practices Revisited", Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, Tir Ysgithr, A.S. XXXIII, p.174

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

Online Encyclopedia Britanica,

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967. [Woulfe]

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