Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2006/min0607.php on line 12

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2006/min0607.php on line 12

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2006/min0607.php on line 15

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2006/min0607.php on line 15
Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the July 9, 2006 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

[Note: These submissions appear on the Dec 06 LoAR]

Meeting commenced at 10:50 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Vivianne Recorder, Catherine de Winter, Cassandra Nicole Loustaunau, Maela Caimbeul, Cei Myghchaell, Cormac Bellows.

Upcoming meetings are: August 20, September 24, October 22, November 19, and December 3, 2006.

At Crown Prints Prize Tournament Their Majesties announced a change to Kingdom Law. Their Majesties have reinstated most of the requirements for individuals to enter Crown lists either as fighter or consort. These include the requirement to send a letter of intent to enter and the well-known name and device registration requirement. This may affect volume in August, the last meeting prior to Crown Tournament.

Laurel has finally released prototype standardized forms for all kingdoms to use. Crescent and Dolphin will be reviewing these and determining which of the few customization choices are best for Caid. Once complete, the forms will be available for use sometime towards the end of 2006.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the August 23, 2006 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Dia of Newcastle. Kingdom resubmission name and device. Argent, in fess a stag's head caboshed between a decrescent and an increscent sable.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes. The submitter's previous name submission (identical to this one) was returned by Crescent 11/05 for lack of documentation for legal name allowance.

Dia is the submitter's legal given name as is now documented by a photocopy of her driver's license.

of Newcastle is a locative byname. "Newcastle upon Tyne" is found in Ekwall (p.339-340, header spelling) with the spelling "Newcastle super Are" dated to 1316-17. We believe it reasonable to omit the reference to the river in an English locative. James Johnson's Place Names of England and Wales also lists Newcastle-on-Tyne (p. 380) with the town dated to 1166.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Vert, a stag's head cabossed sable between in fess a decrescent and an increscent argent fimbriated sable basemost horns conjoined each charged with a crescent-shaped knot "purpure" was returned by Crescent 11/05 for multiple problems.

We feel this submission contains one charge group. Therefore, it does not conflict with Argent, a stag's head couped affronty between in fess two thistles proper. (William Jakes, 05/98) Either we have change in number of primary charges and removal of secondary charges or change in type of half of primary charge group and change in color of the same two charges.

While an interpretation of this as a single charge group suggests this might be "slot machine heraldry", according to previous precedent, designs such as this one do not violate RfS VIII.1.a. For example, Laurel passed Edmund the Lame, Sable, an armored leg palewise embowed and on a chief argent, a maltese cross between a decrescent and an increscent gules (07/90) with the comment, "The chief is poor style, and borders on 'slot machine heraldry'. Only the fact that the two outside charges are crescent variants keeps it from going beyond the pale of the permissible." Thus, Dia's resubmission, while still not quite "period style", is just within registerable parameters (and so much better than before).

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Marcán Ó Maol Chathaigh. New name.

[Name] Submitted as Marcan ua Maelchathaig. The submitter desires an authentic masculine name for 9th-12th C Irish. He will allow all changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the sound and while not indicated on the form, prefers "something like 'Mark Mulcahy'".

Marcán is found in OCM (p. 134 s.n. Marcán). From marc 'a steed'. In the early period this name is more frequently found in the south of Ireland. Marcán mac Cennétig († 1010) was brother of Brian Boru and was abbot of the monasteries of Killaloe, Tomgraney and Emly. There is a St Marcán of Clonenagh whose feast day is 21 October. We have included the accent mark to make the name authentic, according to the submitter's wishes.

Ó Maol Chathaigh is documented from Woulfe (part 1, p.138, s.n. Mulcahy and part 2, p.606). We have changed this to the documented spelling to make the name more authentic.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

Angels, Barony of the

Amariah of Chufut-kale. Kingdom Resubmission Device. Or, on a bend sinister vert between two spider webs couped sable, a spider inverted Or.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Or, a bend sinister vert between a spider's web couped and a spider bendwise inverted sable was returned (06/25/06) for conflict with Or, a bend sinister vert between a sword palewise and a double-bitted ax palewise sable (Pedrwyn Marchion 02/90). This submission eliminates that conflict.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Calafia, Barony of

Edborough Kellie. New name.

[Name] The submitter doesn't care about the gender of their name. The submitter is interested in a name authentic to 14th to 16th century. The submitter will allow all changes and if changes must be made they care most about the Language/Culture (unspecified).

Edborough is found in Withycombe (p.92) dated to 1582. Old English Eadburh, compound of ead 'rich', 'happy', and burh 'fortress', was the name of an 8th-C saint, abbess of Minster, and survived until at least the 17th-C. Edborough Butcher is mentioned in a Summerset will of 1582.

Kellie is found in R&W (p.262 s.n. Kelly) noting "It may also be local in origin, in Scotland from Kelly near Arbroath or Kellie in Fife". Black (p. 390) lists Alexander Kellie was bailie of Dunbar in 1590.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Kára sindri. New Name

[Name] Submitter is interested in a feminine name and has checked no other boxes.

Kára is found in Geirr Bassi on page 12

sindri is also found in Geirr Bassi on page 27 and means '"iron-forger"

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Murchadh Garrioch and Matheus le Vaus. New badge. Gules, a cross between in bend two Maltese crosses and in bend sinister two sets of four crescents conjoined in saltire horns outward argent.

[Name] The submitter's names were both registered 02/04.

[Armory] This conflicts with Denmark (Important non-SCA flag), Italy (Important non-SCA arms) and Malta, Order of the Knights of (Important non-SCA arms), Gules, a cross argent. There is only a single CD for addition of secondary charges. If the charge group generally referred to as "a Cross of Caid" is interpreted as a single charge, then there are also various conflicts of Gules, a cross between four objects argent in which case there is only a single CD for changes in types of secondary charges.

To our eyes, this looks uncomfortably like augmented armory. The "Cross of Caid" is used in the kingdom in the following ways:

1. As an independent piece of armory, the design may be displayed either fielded or fieldless by members of the Society who wish to display their allegiance to Caid.

2. As a part of armory belonging to the kingdom, usually for the use of sub groups of the kingdom.

3. As an augmentation to arms of individuals recognized by the crown of Caid with an augmentation of arms.

We request that the submitters consider removing the "Cross of Caid" from their armory upon resubmission. We suggest they may want to allude to the badge without directly displaying it, for example in a different tincture than argent or by separating the crescents and placing a charge between them.

Device returned for conflict.

Róis inghean uí Fhlaithbheartaigh. Kingdom resubmission device. Argent, an ash tree proper and on a chief azure three bees argent.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 05/02.

[Armory] The submitter's first design, Argent, an ash tree eradicated proper and on a chief embattled azure, two bees fesswise respectant argent. was returned by Crescent 04/06 for conflict with Argent, a tree proper and on a chief embattled azure three plates (Bergois Thorgrímmsdóttir 07/01) with only one clear difference for cumulative changes (type and number) to the tertiary charges. The submitter's second submission, Argent, an ash tree proper and on a chief embattled per pale azure and gules four bees argent cleared this conflict by adding a clear difference for change in half of the tincture of the chief, but it was returned by Crescent 05/06 for redraw (RfS VII.a):

The crenelations on the line of division should be "deeper", so that each crenalation, and each space in between, are approximately square. Also, the wings on the bees are nearly moth-shaped, making it difficult to identify them as bees.

Unfortunately, in this resubmission, the chief is once again single-tinctured and thus is again in conflict with Bergois Thorgrimmsdóttir's armory. (In fact, it's an even closer conflict than the before, with only the change in type, no longer change in number)

The submitter's emblazon seem to improve with every submission.

Device returned for conflict.

Darach, Shire of

Ian Kirkpatrick. Kingdom resubmission device. Purpure, a lamb rampant argent haloed within an orle Or.

[Name] Registered 04/05.

[Armory] The submitter wishes the main charge to be blazoned "a lamb", in keeping with the allusion to the Paschal Lamb. The submitter's previous submission, Purpure, a lamb rampant argent haloed Or within an orle argent was returned by Crescent 06/06 for conflict with Purpure, a goat salient and a bordure argent (Gillian Marie Hayden 07/95). The change in color to the orle adds the necessary, second clear difference.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Noe College

Cormac Mór. Request for reblazon of device. Per fess angled argent and Or.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 02/03.

[Armory] Submitter's device, Per fess with a right step argent and Or was registered 05/04. The submitter is requesting the blazon be changed to Per fess angled argent and Or because he believes the blazon term "with a left/right step" is ambiguous and may be incorrectly used by the Society College of Arms.

The Caidan College spent significant time considering the submitter's lengthy letter with clear, helpful graphics. After discussion, it was decided that the submitter had certainly given enough evidence to cast doubt on what are the correct emblazons for "per fess with a left step" and "per fess with a right step". This argument centers largely around the emblazon of "von Aurburg" which appears in Siebmacher and in Woodward with an apparently reversed emblazon and labeled in Woodward "with a left step".

The letter asks that the blazon term "per pale angled" be used for per fess field divisions and that the default direction for the division to have the division higher in dexter than in sinister. The logic for this being that, in period, the division is rarely, if ever, found with the opposite orientation, so this must be the "default" and the other "reversed". Unfortunately, the letter does not adequately demonstrate why a known blazon term should be replaced (at least in one registration) by one unknown in modern world blazonry. Therefore this is returned for lack of documentation of the term "per fess angled".

We recommend to the submitter try and provide additional information, for example:

1. A source that links the term "per fess with a left step" with an emblazon where the division is higher in dexter than in sinister. This will help prove that Woodward is in error.

2. A real-world example of the blazon term "per fess angled", preferably with an emblazon to match.

One other issue revealed by the submitter is that it appears that the registration Iric Iulian of Black Elk, Per fess with a left step to sinister sable and Or, a griffin salient to sinister and a bat winged wyvern tailed demi-stag erect, counterchanged (02/92) is incorrectly blazoned. The blazon term "per fess with a left step to sinister" suggests that this should be opposite of the other registered examples of "per fess with a left step", but in fact, the divisions are the same on all emblazons. It may be wise to recommend this be repaired in the future.

Request for reblazon returned for insufficient documentation.

Order of Precedence Notes



Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989. [Black]

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names. 4th ed. Oxford University, New York, 1960. [Ekwall]

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Olney, MD: Studia Marklandica, 1977. [Geirr Bassi]

Johnston, James. B. The Place-Names of England and Wales. London: John Murray, 1915. London: Bracken Books, reprint ed. 1994.

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967. [Woulfe]

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer