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Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the May 7, 2006 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

[Note: These submissions appear on the Nov 06 LoAR]

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Thomas Quatrefoil, Catherine de Winter, Cassandre Nicole Loustaunau, Meala Caimbeul, Cei Myghchaell, Marion Fitzthomas and Santin Gold Forest.

Upcoming meetings are: June 25, July 9 (this is a date change), August 20, September 24, October 22, November 19, and December 3, 2006.

The Coronation of Sven and Kolfinna, and the Queen's Champion Tournament will be June 3 and 4, 2006. Those who have business for Coronation or QC Courts should contact Crescent prior to the event. Practically, this means in late May. Assistance with court or field heraldry is needed and appreciated. A heraldic consultation table will be set up at the Tournament.

Crescent read the results from the recent Letters of Acceptance and Return.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the July 26, 2006 Letter of Intent.


Angels, Barony of the

Trenette Genevieve Thibaudeau. New name change from Charlotte Genevieve Thibaudeau.

[Name] Submitter's current name was registered 08/92 after her original submission of Trinette Genevieve Thibaudeau, was returned by Crescent in 03/92 for lack of documentation of Trinette. She has since found documentation to support the original submission. She will allow all changes.

Trenette is the feminine form of the masculine name Trenet, found in Morlet (Etude D'Anthroponymie Picarde, pg. 226). Morlet, on pg. 26 ibid, shows the suffix -ette as the feminization of the suffix -et, and lists several feminine names following the pattern: Gilet → Gilette, Jacquet → Jacquette, Josset → Jossete, Pasquet → Pasquette and Roset → Rosete. Given these examples, the submitted name should be plausible.

The remaining name elements are grandfathered to the submitter.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Amos the Pious. New name and device. Per chevron gules and sable, in cross three Latin crosses crosslet and a chalice Or.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. If changes must be made, the submitter cares most about the meaning.

Amos is a Biblical name. Withycombe states (p. 20, header) "The name of one of the minor Old Testament prophets, occasionally used since the Reformation and especially common in the USA."

the Pious is a descriptive byname. We found this name on an official Roman Catholic Church website, referring to an Emperor Louis the Pious, dated to 828 -- see www.newadvent.org/cathen/06789b.htm. We found an illumination of Louis the Pious on the British Library website, and the rubrication at the top of the page reads "se reuela contre lui. et pius (com)me(n)t is se repenti". The page dates to the second quarter of the 14th C. (http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/controller/textsearch?text=Louis+the+Pious&y=0&x=0&startid=12627&width=4&height=2&idx=2).

[Device] This must be returned for difficulties identifying the charges. (see: RfS VII.a) The per chevron division is too low, looking more like a point pointed, however such an interpretation would break the rule of tincture. Also the small crosses on the crosses crosslet need more definition to be easily distinguished from a distance.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for redraw.


Róis inghean uí Fhlaithbheartaigh. Kingdom resubmission device. Argent, an ash tree proper and on a chief embattled per pale azure and gules four bees argent.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 05/02.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission Argent, an ash tree eradicated proper and on a chief embattled azure two bees fesswise respectant argent was returned by Crescent 04/02 for conflict with Argent, a tree proper on a chief embattled azure three plates. [Bergdis Thorgrímsdóttir 07/01]. The change in color of half of the chief provides the necessary second clear difference.

Unfortunately, this must be returned for difficulties identifying the charges. (see: RfS VII.a). The crenelations on the line of division should be "deeper", so that each crenalation, and each space in between, are approximately square. Also, the wings on the bees are nearly moth-shaped, making it difficult to identify them as bees.

Device returned for redraw.


Samuel Piper. New name and device. Quarterly vert and Or, four viols counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter desires an English name and permits all changes. The name is 16th Century English.

Samuel is listed in Withycombe (p.263, header), as a masculine given name: "After the Reformation Samuel became a favourite name, an early example being Samuel Daniel the poet (1562-1619)." It is also found in "Late 16th Century English Given Names" by Talan Gwynek (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng16/eng16alpha.html), with 10 occurrences in period.

Piper is a surname found in this spelling in an article on the St. Gabriel website, "Two Tudor subsidy rolls for the city of London, 1541 and 1582" (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=36148), with examples of Harman Piper and John Piper from those rolls. Photocopies of this page are included with the submission.

[Armory] The viols are in the default SCA posture, with necks to chief and strings facing forwards.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Timothy the Procrastinator. New name, new device. Azure, in saltire a sword proper and a rose argent barbed, slipped and leaved Or inverted.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. No other boxes are indicated.

Timothy Found in The Oxford Dictionary of Saints, p.414, Timothy (d.97) discple of the apostle Paul, bishop and martyr. Also found in Withycombe p. 281 this male name is derived from the Greek ψιμόθεος, compound of ψιμή 'honour', 'respect' and θεός 'god'. It was the name of the convert and companion of St. Paul, to whom two of his espistles are addressed. It did not come into use in England until after the Reformation. Timothy has been used a great deal in Ireland (usually abbreviated to Tim) to represent the native Tadhgh (q.v.). Finally, Timothy is the submitter's modern, given name as documented by a photocopy of his California Driver's License.

the Procrastinator is a descriptive byname. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Procrastinator" dates to 1607 in Walkington's Opt. Glass p.154, "So is he no procrastinatour", "Procrastinate" dates from 1588 in J. Harvey's Disc. Probl. p.114 "The significations of this conjunction happening in the watrie Trigon, are procrastinated or prolonged until after sixe conjunctions immediately ensuing".

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Warin Flecher. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept no changes.

Warin is in Withycombe (p.296, s.n. Warren), dated in this spelling to 1273.

Flecher is in R&W (p.171, s.n. Fletcher) with this spelling dated to 1203.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Dreiburgen, Barony of


Dolores de Avila. New device. Per bend sinister argent and purpure, a cat sejant sable and a heraldic rose argent.

[Name] Registered 10/00.

[Armory] This conflicts with Per bend sinister argent and purpure, two cats sejant counterchanged sable and argent (Morina Felix 12/97). There is only a single CD for changes to half of the primary charge group. The colors of the charges are the same.

Device returned for conflict.


Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Gregor MacDonald. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the sound and the language/culture (Scottish). Special note: "I am NOT interested in authenticity."

Gregor is documented from Saint Gagriel Report 1416, "s.n. MacGregor; Griogair was a Gaelic adaptation of the Latin saint's name <Gregorius> ... it appeared in Scotland as <Gregor>" (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1416.txt). We also found the name in Withycombe (p. 138, s.n. Gregory), where the author asserts that the Scottish surname, "McGregor is a patronymic formed from Gregor, the usual Scottish form of the name".

MacDonald is documented from Saint Gabriel Report 2014 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2014.txt), "s.n. MacDonald - The new Testament name <Marcus> was adopted into Gaelic by the 14th Century in Scotland, when it was used by the Galwegian bishop <Mark> of Man... and by Marcus Macdonal, a son of the Lord of the Isles." Also, Saint Gabriel Report 1249 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1249.txt), "In modern usage, a name like <MacDonald> is a clan surname; that was not true in period. In period Gaelic culture, a <mac> surname was a true patronymic... Here are a few Scots spellings of <MacDonald> from your period: MakDonald 1571..." Finally, Early 16th Century Scottish Lowland Names, Sharon L. Krossa, Men's Given Names, Donald, lists Donald 1501 (1), 1502 (1) and 1521 (5) at http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/menalpha.shtml.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Petronel Harlakenden. New name.

[Name] The submitter desires a feminine name. She will not accept any changes.

Petronel is documented from Saint Gabriel report 796 (http://www.s-gabriel.org/796) that indicates that, "We also found a female name Petronelle, which is derived from the male name Petronel." (referencing Dauzat, Albert, Dictionnaire Etymologique de Noms de Famille et Prenoms de France (Paris: Libraire Larousse 1987)). We also found the name used by Gile Farnaby (1598) who wrote the song Pearce did Love Fair Petronel, suggesting that by this period this name is used by women (http://www.oldmusicproject.com/madrigalia/farnaby.html). The first line reads, "Pearce did love fair Petronel, because she sang and danced well."

Harlakenden is documented by the submitter from British Library Lansdowne MSS 77/81 (new number 198-198v) 1 Summary: This undated letter from Roger Harlakenden appears to have been written to Lord Burghley. http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/new_files_june_14_04/BL_Lansdowne_77_81_1-4F99E.pdf; Essex Records Office T/B 177/4/1 Summary: The wording of Oxford's commision of 9 January 1592 below establishes that Roger Harlakenden was in a position of trust in the sale of Colne Piory. http://www.oxford-shakespeare.com/new_files_feb_25_05/1592_Commission.pdf.

An Index to the Arms in W.Bruce Bannerman (ed.), The Visitations of Kent. 2 vols. (Harleian Society, vols. 74 & 75, 1923-1924) by John Blythe Dobson: In this document are listed here coats of arms for Harlakenden in 1574 and Harlaykynden in 1530. http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobson/GFA/kent_arms_1530-1592.pdf and http://cybrary.uwinnipeg.ca/people/dobson/GFA/KentishAdministrations/1559-1649_alpha.html.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Collette de Montpellier. New name change from Collette Sarrasin de Montpellier.

[Name] The submitter's current primary name was registered 12/05. The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept no changes.

All elements are grandfathered to the submitter.

Colette is found in Saint Gabriel report 2479 (www.s-gabriel.org/2479). The report claims the name is from Picardy 14th-15th Centuries. The reference is from:

Morlet, Marie-Therese, _Etude d'anthroponymie picarde, les noms de personne en Haute Picardie aux XIIIe, XIVe, XVe siecles_ (Amiens, Musee de Picardie, 1967).

de Montpellier is a locative byname. "Montpellier" is found in Dauzat (p.440, s.n. Mont).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Matheus Reyner. Laurel resubmission device. Quarterly sable and argent, two wings conjoined in lure counerchanged.

[Name] Submitter's name was registered 01/06.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, Quarterly sable and argent, a winged sword inverted wings elevated and inverted counterchanged was returned by Laurel 01/06 for design problems; counterchanging a long, thin object along its long axis. This design removes the long, thin object, the sword, and thus addresses the reason for the previous return.

However, this is a visual conflict with Nikodemus Volk, Quarterly sable and argent, a double-headed eagle counterchanged, 07/04).

The only rule which would render these designs theoretically clear would be RfS X.2 - Complete difference of primary charge. We could find no previous precedent ruling on what level of difference exists between an eagle and wings conjoined in lure. Therefore, we decline to rule on whether these are clear according to the standards of X.2.

There is an overwhelming visual similarity between these designs, and therefore conflict according to RfS X.5:

If the tinctures, shapes, or arrangement of the charges in a submission create an overwhelming visual resemblance to a piece of protected armory, the submission may be held to conflict even if sufficient theoretical difference can be counted between them.

The primary visual difference between this design and the registered device is the removal of the eagle's heads and tail; details which are obscured by the overwhelming, high-contrast counterchanging.

Device returned for visual conflict.


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Davin Mac Alister of Drake's Height. Kingdom resubmission device change. Azure, a natural tiger argent marked sable and a dragon combatant within an orle argent.

[Name] Registered 07/90.

[Armory] The submitter's previous submission, Azure, two natural tigers couchant argent striped sable and a dragon couchant bendwise sinister argent. (07/10/05) was withdrawn by submitter. The submitter wishes his previously registered device, Per chevron azure and Or, two natural tigers couchant addorsed tails entwined argent marked and a bird volant wings displayed sable (01/01) to be released.

We advise the submitter to draw the orle thicker, but this is not reason for return.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Lyondemere, Barony of

Lylie Sole. New name and device. Per chevron purpure and sable, a lily argent.

[General] Due to some confusion at Estrella, these submissions were filled out on Atenveldt forms and went home with the Aten submission herald. After a couple months of improvisation, the forms and payments are all here. Since the Aten forms have pretty much everything necessary, we accept them without complaint.

[Name] The submitter doesn't care about the gender of the name. The submitter will allow all changes and if changes must be made, sound is most important. Submitter will not allow the creation of a holding name.

Lylie is in R&W (p.279, s.n. Liley). This spelling is 1296. The original name was Thomas son of Lylie. Reaney indicates that the name is "probably a pet-form of Elizabeth".

Sole is also in R&W (p.417, header). This spelling is dated to 1203.

Name and Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Order of Precedence Notes

Amos the Pious has awards under that name.

Colette de Montpellier has awards under the name Colette Sarrasin de Montpellier.

Timothy the Procrasinator has awards under that name.

Trenette Genevieve Thibaudeau has awards under the name Charlotte Genevieve Thibaudeau.


Bibliography

British Library website (http://www.imagesonline.bl.uk/britishlibrary/controller/textsearch?text=Louis+the+Pious&y=0&x=0&startid=12627&width=4&height=2&idx=2),

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet. [Dauzat]

Farmer, D. H. The Oxford Dictionary of Saints, 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Farnsby, Gile (http://www.oldmusicproject.com/madrigalia/farnaby.html)

Krossa, Sharon. "Early 16th Century Scottish Lowland Names" (updated 7 Dec 2001), http://www.MedievalScotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/

Morlet, Marie-Thérèse. Étude D'Anthroponymie Picarde, Les Noms de Personne en Haute Picardie aux XIIIe, XIVe, Xve siècles. Amiens: Musée de Picardie, 1967.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Roman Catholic Website (www.newadvent.org/cathen/06789b.htm)

St. Gabriel website (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=36148),
(http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1416.txt),
(http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/2014.txt),
(http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi/1249.txt),
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/796),
(http://www.s-gabriel.org/2479)

Talen Gwynek, "Late 16th Century English Given Names" (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/eng16/eng16alpha.html)

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]


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