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Caid College of Heralds Badge

Minutes of the January 22, 2006 College of Heralds Meeting

Caid College of Heralds Badge

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jun 06 LoAR]

Meeting commenced at 11:00 AM.

In attendance were: Lachlan Crescent, Su Dolphin, Illuminada Silver Trumpet, Santin Gold Forest, Damien Sable Fret, Balthazar Seraph, Altan Gal (college chancellor of the exchequer), Cormac Bellows, Vivienne Recorder, Catherine de Winter, Rotheric Kynith, Maela Caimbeul and Cassandre Loustaunau.

Upcoming meetings are: February 05, March 12, April 02, May 07, and June 25, 2006.

Crescent went over the information from October LOAR. Using Latin Patronimic markers in Galeic names - documentary sources use this form, so it is acceptable for use in Old or Middle Irish - Early Modern Irish would use only Gaelic. There was request from Pelican for comment about grandfathering elements and patterns. The need for adequate biographical references was reviewed.

Unless otherwise noted, all submitters will accept the creation of a holding name, if appropriate. Approved submissions will be forwarded on the February 22, 2006 Letter of Intent.

Altavia, Barony of

Robyn Foxle. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will accept all changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the sound.

Robyn is in Withycombe (p. 254, s.n. Robert). It is a masculine name, and the entry notes Robyn Coventry Mysteries 15th C.

Foxle is in R & W (p. 176, s.n. Foxlee, Foxley) John de Foxle is dated to 1230 P (Nth)

The correct pronunciation of the surname is fox-lee, not fox-l. The college discussed at much length the possible aural conflict with Robin of Locksley. Removing "of" does not count toward clearing the conflict. The surnames are not related; they are both locatives based upon locations in differing counties. The college feels that there is enough difference in the pronunciation of the surnames that they do not conflict.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Angels, Barony of

Balthazar van der Brugghe. Change of device. Or, a schnecke sable.

[Name] Name registered 08/03.

[Device] If registered, the submitter's previous device, Argent, in pale a cloud sable and a bridge of one span gules masoned argent and a base wavy azure (registered 08/03) should be retained as a badge.

This is clear of Or, a gurges sable within a bordure Gules (Amanda of Coldcastle, 07/94). There is one CD via X.4.e for the change in primary charge ("there is significant difference (a CD) between a gurges and a schnecke" Cover Letter, 07/05 LoAR) and one via X.4.b for the removal of the border.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Morten Skovrider. New name.

[Name] Submitter is interested in a masculine name authentic for "Danish, will accept Scandinavian". He will accept minor but not major changes, and if changes must be made, he cares most about the meaning ('Skovrider' should be Danish for 'forest steward').

Morten can be found in Academy of St. Gabriel Report 2896 dated to 1480-1530 (www.s-gabriel.org/2896). Saint Gabriel's source is Fladby, Rolf, Kongebrev i Diplomatarium Norvegicum (Oslo: Kommisjonen for Diplomatarium norgeficum. 1965) vol. 3, nr. 929; vol. 6, nr. 632; vol. 14, nrr. 193-196, 697, 701; vol. 16, nr. 274 (front page: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/om_dn.html; English search page: http://www.dokpro.uio.no/dipl_norv/diplom_field_eng.html)

Skovrider has been found in a list of Old Norwegian Occupations beginning with S (http://www.steamships.org/research/occupations/s.html). Skovrider translates to Forest Steward. For our purposes, this website is not of very much use. This site reviews ship records beginning in 1821. While we do not doubt the scholarship of the resource, the names therein are not period. We were unable to corroborate the name in other Scandinavian name resources. Without further documentation, we cannot forward this name (RfS II.1).

Name returned for insufficient documentation.

Morin Muir. Change of holding name from Cindy of Angels.

[Name] Submitted as Mouren Muir. The submitter's device, Quarterly lozengy Or and purpure and purpure, four triquestras inverted argent is registered under the holding Cindy of Angels (03/00). The submitter doesn't care about the gender of the name. She will accept all changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound. Her previous name submission, Mouren Muir was returned by Laurel 02/03 for lack of documentation that "Mouren" is a period name;

The submitter requested authenticity for Scots Gaelic and allowed minor changes. Mouren was documented from Black (p. 616 s.n. Mouren). However, this entry does not support the form Mouren as being used in period. No time frame for the form Mouren is mentioned in this entry at all, implying that the name is a modern Scots (a language closely related to English) name. Instead, this entry gives Muirgen as Old Irish and Morgen as Old Welsh forms of this name. Lacking evidence that Mouren is a plausible name in period, it is not registerable.

As the submitter only allowed minor changes, and changing the language of the given name from Scots to Welsh or Gaelic is a major change, we were unable to change this name to a documentable form in order to register this name.

Similar sounding names that may interest the submitter include Muirenn, an Irish Gaelic name dated to the 9th C in Ó Corráin & Maguire p. 131 s.n. Muirenn, and Morina, which is a Latinizied Irish name dated to the 14th C in Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's article "Names & Naming Practices in the Red Book of Ormond" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/ormond.html). Tangwystyl's article gives Morin as the hypothetical Gaelic name represented by the Latin Morina.

Unfortunately, this is the same name as was previously returned and the submitter has not provided any further documentation. In fact, the documentation space on the form cites "Names & Naming Practices in the Red Book of Ormond". This indicates to us that Laurel's suggested Morin might be acceptable. And, of the three names suggested, this is the one that appears to sound the closest to the submitted name. We have therefore made this change.

Muir is in Black (p.617 s.n. Muir). The closest dated spelling is John Mur or Muyr dated to 1469. Muir seems a reasonable spelling variant, and was apparently acceptable at the time of her last submission.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.

Nicolaie Potcoava. New Name and device. Azure, a chevron Or in base a wolf sejant ululant argent.

[Name] The submitter wishes a masculine name.

Nicolaie is found in Aranhwy merch Catmael's (Sara L. Uckelman) "Names from the Royal Lines of Moldavia and Walachia" dated to 1599-1600 (www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/other/romanian.html).

Potcoava is found in the same source dated to 1577, with the listed meaning of "horseshoe". We verified that the source was listed on St. Gabriel's website.

[Armory] The submitter could draw the chevron a bit narrower to allow more room for the wolf.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Roderick Leopold Schade. New name and device. Vert, a sword inverted proper surmounted by a stag's skull argent.

[Name] Submitted as Rodaric Leopold Schade. Submitter has marked no boxes.

We were not successful documenting the spelling "Rodaric" as a German name or otherwise. Roderick is found in Withycombe (p.255, s.n.Roderick) as a masculine name. "Old German Hrodric, compound of hrothi 'fame' and 'richi 'rule', .. Roderick, however is not infrequent in Scotland where it is used to render the Gaelic Ruaidhri 'the red'... " Withycombe is unreliable with non-English spellings, and Bahlow failed to corroborate the spelling "Hroderic". Therefore, we have changed the name to the similar, Scots spelling. This name therefore combines Scots and German, which is one step from period practice.

Leopold is found in Bahlow (p.333, s.n. Leopold(t)) "scholarly form for Germanic Liutbald (Luitpold, Lüpold: FN Leupold, Leupelt), meaning 'bold among the people'; L is the patron saint of Austria, this name is popular especially sh.f. Poldi; in Bav"

Schade is also found in Bahlow (p.480, s.n. Schade) "(freq.) Schaade, UGer. Schad: one who does damage, a common surname for (robber) knights." Dated to 1230 and 1283.

[Armory] Submitter should draw the head portion of the skull larger, but we feel it is recognizable as a stag's skull because of the prominent antlers.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Sabina de Mordone. New name and device. Argent, a chevron gules between two lions and a Catherine's wheel azure.

[Name] submitter marked no boxes.

Sabina is found in R&W (p.388 s.n. Saban, Sabben Saben, Sabin, Sabine) where Sabina is dated to 1186-1210. "There were three saints named Sabinus and one Sabina." This is also found at www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/reaneyHZ.html.

de Mordone is found online at "British History online, Subsidy Roll 1292 Cripplegate ward. Item #59". Abbreviations state the name is from Cambridge or Surrey. (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=31917) R&W (p. 314 s.n. Morden) also mentions Thomas de Mordone 1235-6.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Una verch Morgant o Rhos. Kingdom resub name.

[Name] The submitter has checked no boxes. The submitter's previous name submission, Una Morgant o Rhos was returned by Crescent 11/05 for use of double given name (or unmarked patronymic) in Welsh. The submitter has fixed the reason for return with the addition of the patronymic marker.

Una is found in OCM (p. 176, s.n. Una). The editors note that it is extremely popular.

verch Morgant (daughter of Morgant). This name is found in Morgan & Morgan, (p. 168, s.n. Morgan) "The OW form Morcant... the name became Morgan in the med period. There are examples relatively late of Morgant." They indicate two instances found in the RecCa Index (Record of Carnarvon), which they fail to date.

o Rhos "of Rhios". The location is found in Dewi Davis, Welsh Place Names and Their Meaning, (p. 40, s.n. Rhos), meaning "moorland". Evans and Thomas' The New Welsh Dictionary lists "o" under "from" p.293.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Caid, Kingdom of

Caid, Kingdom of. New badge. Azure, a tower between two sets of four crescents conjoined in saltire horns outward argent.

[Name] Kingdom name registered 02/75. This badge is to be associated with "Caidan Royal Artillery Corps".

Withdrawn by submitter.

Ingilborg Sigmundardottir. Kingdom resub. badge. (Fieldless) A sheaf of a sword inverted between four arrows [argent*] bound with a garter sable.

[Name] The submitter's name was registered 8/01. This badge is to be associated with House Strongbow, which appears on the 08/25/05 Letter of Intent from Caid.

[Armory] The submitter's previous design, identical but with an argent garter, was returned by Crescent 11/05 for use of a restricted charge, a white belt. Changing the color of the garter to sable clears this presumption problem.

This design is undeniably period, despite the somewhat cumbersome blazon. We note that "Fettered Cock Pewters" sells a charm nearly identical to this design, which they call "Battle Archers" (http://www.fetteredcockpewters.com/page_badges.htm). The website states the charm is based upon the badge of Prince Arthur (brother of Henry VIII). Pilgrim Souvenirs and Secular Badges (by Brian Spencer, Museum of London, copyright 1998) says on p.298 while describing a very similar badge without the central sword (#293), "Five arrows tied at the middle was a badge of Arthur, Prince of Wales (1486-1502)"

Prince Arthur is an important enough person to protect his armory, but we don't have a specific blazon to cite. Therefore, we feel the best course of action is to forward this badge for the College's consideration.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.

* Editor's note: The tincture "argent" was omitted from the blazon on the original minutes and on the Letter of Intent of February 22, 2006. Dolphin sent a Letter of Correction indicating this error on May 10, 2006.

Calafia, Barony of

Erdenitei Badm-a-Delgere. Laurel resub device. Or, a ram-horned demon's head cabossed within an annulet of lotus petals vert.

[Name] Registered by Laurel 11/05.

[Armory] This was returned on Laurel's 11/07/05 LoAR for lack of identifiablity and reproducibility. The emblazon has been completely redrawn.

Approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Sáerlaith ingen mhim Neill. Kingdom resub device. Azure a seahorse Or on a chief argent wavy three estoiles azure.

[Name] The submitter's name was forwarded to Laurel on Caid's 09/21/05 LoI (and should be on the November LoAR)

[Device] This device was previously returned 12/11/05for insufficient amplitude on the wavy line. This submission corrects these issues.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Western Seas, Barony of

Faolan O'Reilly. New name.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a masculine name authentic for 10th Century Irish. He will accept minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, he cares most about the meaning, "wolf".

Faolan is in OCM (p.92, s.n. Fáelán: Faolan), meaning "wolf". The authors state, "...is a common early name... Fourteen saints of this name include St Fáelán Find whose feast day in 5 May. St. Fáelán brother of St. Fursu who was martyred in Flanders about 656." Faolan is the modern (post 1200) spelling.

O'Reilly is in Maclysaght (p.257, s.n. (O) Reilly); "One of the most numerous names in Ireland, especially so in Co. Cavan. The prefix O has been widely resumed in the anglicized form."

Though the submitter requested changes to make the name authentic for 10th Century Irish, we feel that a change to the Early Irish, "Fáelán Ó Raghailligh" would constitute a major change, which is disallowed by the submitter. Therefore, we are forwarding this name as submitted.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.

Order of Precedence Notes



Aranhwy merch Catmael (Sara L. Uckelman), "Names from the Royal Lines of Moldavia and Walachia", (www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/other/romanian.html)

Bahlow, Hans. Dictionary of German Names. translated by Edda Gentry, University of Wisconsin, Madison: Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, 1967, English version: 2002. [Bahlow/Gentry 2nd]

Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989. [Black]

"British History online, Subsidy Roll 1292 Cripplegate ward. Item #59". (www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=31917)

Davis, Dewi, Welsh Place Names and Their Meaning

Fladby, Rolf, Kongebrev i Diplomatarium Norvegicum (Oslo: Kommisjonen for Diplomatarium norgeficum. 1965) vol. 3

MacLysaght, Edward. The Surnames of Ireland. 6th ed. Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 1985. [MacLysaght]

Morgan, T.J. and Morgan, Prys, Welsh Surnames. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1985 [Morgan & Morgan]

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

"Old Norwegian Occupations beginning with S" (http://www.steamships.org/research/occupations/s.html)

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn, "Names & Naming Practices in the Red Book of Ormond" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/ormond.html)

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977. [Withycombe]

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