Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2004/min0411.php on line 9

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2004/min0411.php on line 9

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2004/min0411.php on line 12

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2004/min0411.php on line 12

Minutes of the 21 November 2004 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Apr 05 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

In attendance were: Lachlan Dolphin, Selene Aurum, Su Battlement, Damien Sable Fret, Balthazar Seraph, Catherine de Winter, Vivienne de Lampérière, Grimr in harfagri, Santin Gold Forest, Thomas Brownwell, Kurt Sommelier and Jared Alexandre Blaydeaux (via telephone). Jeanne Marie Crescent is out of town, so Dolphin is running the meeting.

Twelfth Night is approaching. Crescent requests that all with business for Twelfth Night court inform her before hand. She expects an especially high volume of presentations due to Their Majesties' largesse challenge.

With Twelfth Night comes the spectre of Domesday. All territorial heralds, staff heralds and "at large" heralds are required to submit a Domesday report to Crescent due prior to the end of the year.

Our warrants were signed by Their Majesties at Coronation. Jeanne Marie hopes to make the pertinent parts available soon.

The December 19th meeting will be the traditional College of Heralds holiday party. In addition to the usual pot-luck luncheon, there will be a desert revel following the business meeting. There will also be a gift exchange (bring a wrapped, appropriate gift valued at around $10-$20), and the yearly photograph session (bring your best tabard). As usual, family members are welcome to share in the festivities.

The tentative schedule for 2005: January 23rd, February 27th, March 20th, (April Crown name/armory submissions due), April 24th, May 15th, June 12th or 19th (whichever on is not QC Equestrian, which is not yet on the kingdom calendar), July 10th, August 7th, September 11th, October 2nd, November 6th, and December 4th.

Lachlan read a summary of the April 2004 Laurel Letter of Acceptances and Returns.

Approved submissions will be forwarded to Laurel on the December 18, 2004 Letter of Intent.


Angels, Barony of

Morgaine FitzStephen - New Badge:

Argent, an ivy leaf inverted and on a chief vert three annulets argent.

[Name] Name registered 05/86.

[Armory] This badge is clear of Argent, an oak leaf and on a chief vert, three horseshoes inverted argent, Keina Greenleaf (05/00). One CD is derived from the change in type of leaf (oak to ivy), "[an ivy leaf vert] This is clear of ... On a blackthorn leaf vert an increscent argent, and ... On an oak leaf vert a hand argent. In each case there is a CD for fieldlessness and the shape of the leaves is significantly different enough for there to be a second CD. [Isabel Ulfsdottir, 03/01, A-Middle]" The change in orientation of the leaf adds a second difference. There is a third CD for substantially changing the type of tertiary charges by X.4.j.ii.

The emblazon on this form is smaller than the required 4 ½" diameter due to use of online forms printed with "Shrink to fit" turned ON. As this is a newly-discovered difficulty, we will not return this badge for this reason. The form will be redrawn prior to being sent to Laurel.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Grim øxarbrjótr - Kingdom Resub Name and Device:

Sable, an axe bendwise sinister and in base a serpent erect tail nowed Or.

[Name] The submitter desires a masculine name. He will accept minor but not major changes and if the name must be changed, he cares most about the meaning of the surname "axebreaker". The previous name submission (Grim øxarbrjótr Thorsen) was returned by Crescent October 24 for lack of documentation of its construction and elements. Mostly this return was due to the surname. This submission is identical, but without the problematical surname.

The submitter documents Grim from Geirr Bassi p.10, which lists the spelling "Grimr". The submitter prefers the form without the "r" and believes that it is a valid variant. We're uncertain whether Grim without the "r" would be valid for the earlier period, although it would be for later Anglicization. Searle lists multiple instances of Grim (p. 268) dated from the 900's. Precedent states, "Mixing Old English and Old Norse is a weirdness" (Ethelfleda Davidsdottir, 12/01).

øxarbrjótr is a constructed byname based upon the examples from Geirr Bassi. Geirr Bassi cites garđabrjótr "fence breaker" (p.21), haugabrjótr "cairn breaker" (p.22) and hornabrjótr "horn breaker" (p.23), showing -brjótr to be a valid deuterotheme. Geirr Bassi cites øxarstafr "ax-stave, ax-handle" (p.30), showing øxar- as a valid prototheme. While none of these have as close a meaning as could be desired, the meaning "[weapon or tool] breaker" is at least logical and in the nature of many Old Norse nicknames which seem to celebrate destruction. We believe it is registerable.

[Armory] The identical device submission was previously returned for lack of name.

This form appears to have been photo reduced some time prior to submission. The emblazon is not so small as to be returnable for this reason.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Darach, Shire of

Etain inghean Ghiolla Phadraig - New Name and Device:

Or, a Celtic cross per pale purpure and vert.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name authentic for 12th to 13th century Gaelic/Irish. She will allow minor but not major changes and if the name must be changed she cares most about the language/culture. She notes "Please see attached", though we see no attachments related to the name.

Étaín is found in OCM (p.90), where the authors assert that the name is attributable to many medieval saints, including one who "gave gifts of gold and silver to S. Patrick." The name became generally popular in the late Middle Ages, flourishing in the 13th C. Accent marks can be omitted in Gaelic, as long as they are consistently omitted. As the submitter did not include the accents, we are not adding them.

inghean is Gaelic, daughter of.

Ghiolla Phadraig is in Woulfe (p.87, sn Gilpatrick) with "Mac Giolla Pádraig" with Elizabethan Anglicized forms e.g. M'Kilpatrick. The submitter has provided the lenited form. We invite the College's aid in fixing the lenition, as we are not experts in that arcane art.

[Armory] The concavity of the ends of each arm of the cross are not deep enough to confuse this with other crosses. While peculiar, the cross is still recognizable as a Celtic cross and these indentations are not deep enough to warrant blazoning them as, for example, "a Celtic cross maltese". We recommend that, in the future, the submitter draw the cross with straight ends on each arm and perhaps a slightly larger circle.

This form appears to have been photo reduced some time prior to submission. The emblazon is not so small as to be returnable for this reason.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Fleurette Christine Revielloue - New name

[Name] No boxes are checked. No documentation provided.

Fleurette is found in Dauzat, (p. 258, sn Fleuret), with several variants listed with the header, including this one.

Christine is found in Dauzat (p. 130, header).

We were unable to find Revielloue or any similar variant with this ending. We need to know the source of this name before this can be sent to Laurel.

Name returned for lack of documentation of byname.


Ian Kirkpatrick - New name

[Name] Submitted as Ian Kirk Patrick. No boxes are checked.

"Ian has been ruled SCA-Compatible." (Ian MacClennan, 08/01) As an SCA-compatible name, it is one step from period practice.

Kirkpatrick is documented from MacLysacht (header, p. 185), a Scottish surname used in Ulster. The citation says "See Kilpatrick", which is apparently the more commonly used form. It is also found in Black (header, p.407), which has Roger and Robert de Kirkpatrick between 1194-1211, where the author states that the name is derived from a church dedicated to S. Patrick, in the parish of Closeburn. We see no evidence of this name having been split into two words as submitted. We have made this change.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Caterucia Bice da Ghiacceto - Kingdom Resub Device:

Per fess azure and sable a dove volant and a fleur-de-lis argent.

[Name] Name registered 04/04.

[Armory] Her previous design, with an identical blazon was returned by Crescent for redraw October 24. This emblazon fixes the problems of the former design.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Edgar Chissik - Resub Kingdom Device:

Per pale azure and purpure a skull wearing a fool's cap between three pheons inverted argent.

[Name] This name appeared on the 03/29 LoI.

[Armory] His previous design, was returned by Crescent for redraw October 24. This emblazon fixes the problems of the former design. It is recommended that, in the future, the submitter draw the pheons larger.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Vivienne de Lampérière­ and Rotheric Kynith - Administrative action - Change of badge association

House of Cempa

(Fieldless) A sword inverted Or surmounted by a rose gules barbed vert and seeded argent.

[Name] Vivienne's name was registered 05/02. Rotheric's name was also registered 05/02. The submitters wish to associate the above badge (registered 04/03 via Caid as a joint badge) with the name House of Cempa (Joint Household Name registered 05/04). Attached is a letter of permission signed by the two individuals, dated Nov. 21, 2004.

Action approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Lyondemere, Barony of

Méabh ingen Cléirigh - New name and device

Per pale Or and vert, a chess knight counterchanged.

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. She will accept minor but not major changes and if changes must be made, she cares most about the sound.

Méabh Is found in OCM (p.135, sn "Medb"). "This is primarily a female name, being one of the twenty most popular names in later medieval Ireland...The name was in use especially in the north of Ireland..."

ingen is Gaelic, "daughter of"

Cléirigh is in MacLysaght (p.46, sn Clery). "This is one of the earliest hereditary surnames. Originally of Kilmacdauagh (Co. Galway) the sept was dispersed and after the 13th Century settled in several parts of the country."

[Armory] There is a possible conflict with Gráca da Alataia, Per pale Or and Vert, a chess pawn counterchanged (01/87). We could not find any specific ruling on whether a chess knight and a chess pawn are substantially different for the application of RfS X.2. The PicDic (see: CHESS PIECES) notes, "...only the chess rook and chess knight are found in period armory...The other two pieces, the chess king and chess pawn, are SCA inventions..." Therefore, we cannot determine whether these charges were considered separate in period armory. Their blazoned form, as illustrated in the PicDic, are notably different, and therefore we believe an X.2 difference exists between them.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Starkhafn, Barony of

Caiterína Firebrand - Laurel Resub Name

[Name] The submitter is interested in a feminine name. No other boxes are checked. Her first submission, "Caiterina an Failenn ui Faolchaidh" was returned by Crescent 11/01 for undocumentable double name. Her second submission, "Caterína an bràthadair" was returned by Laurel 09/02 for lack of documentation of the byname. Her most recent submission, "Catherlieschen Eldi-Brandr" was retuned by Crescent 05/04 for mixture of German and Norse.

Caiterína is in OCM (p.45) where it is dated to its introduction by the Normans, and was well established in the Irish aristrocracy by the 15th Century.

Firebrand is a descriptive surname documented from the OED (p.1005) glossed as one who kindles mischief, or inflames passions. This spelling is dated to 1583, "Dr. Sanders the Popes firebrand in England." This illustrates the figurative use of the term to refer to a person.

We also note Firebrand, Shire of (02/89), which could be used to document this name as an unmarked locative of an SCA place.

Names mixing Gaelic and English orthographies are considered one step from period practice. "Submitted as Ian MacEanruig, that name contains two weirdnesses: it uses a post-period anglicization of a Gaelic name and mixes Gaelic and English orthographies." (Ian MacHenrik, 10/99).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Tomás mac Caoil - New Device:

Per bend sinister wavy azure and argent, two lizards in annulo bendwise within an annulet counterchanged.

[Name] Name registered 08/01.

[Armory] The device is returned for redraw. From medium distance, the line of division is difficult to distinguish from embattled, further away, it becomes difficult to tell that there is a complex line of division at all. The wavy division line must be drawn with fewer, larger waves. We did conflict check the device and found nothing at this time that conflicts with it.

This form appears to have been photo reduced some time prior to submission. The emblazon is not so small as to be returnable for this reason. We request that the submitter use a standard submission form for their resubmission.

Device returned for redraw.


OP Notes

None.


Bibliography

Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989. [Black]

Bruce Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio. A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry as Used in the Society for Creative Anachronism. privately published, 1988. [PicDic]

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet. [Dauzat]

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson. The Old Norse Name. Olney, MD: Studia Marklandica, 1977. [Geirr Bassi]

MacLysaght, Edward. The Surnames of Ireland. 6th ed. Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 1985. [MacLysaght]

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [OCM]

Oxford University. The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. New York: Oxford University Press, 1971. [OED]

Searle, William George. Onomasticon Anglo-Saxonicum. 1897. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press,. Facsimile ed. 1969.

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967.


Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer