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Minutes of the 2 August 2003 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Dec 03 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

In attendance were: Jeanne Marie Crescent, Lachlan Dolphin, Kean Trident, Kurt Sommelier, and Cormac Mór.

The next heraldry meetings will be: September 14th, October 19th, November 2nd, and December 14th. All heralds are strongly encouraged to sign up for the caid_heralds list. This is a very low volume list, mostly official issues (e.g., reminders of meeting dates, news of policy changes, etc.). This list is also used by heralds requesting help with submissions, but not frequently -- most of these queries seem to go to scahrlds.

If Crescent doesn't have your agreement to serve and a copy of your membership card by Crown Tourney, you will not be re-warranted as a territorial herald. Make sure you get the paperwork in.

As a reminder, please e-mail submission summaries to Jeanne Marie () prior to each CoH meeting. For names, this means a summary of the documentation and of the boxes marked on the form. For armory, this means a blazon. Sending the names only is of minimal help. Folders will be pulled (or created) prior to the meeting for all submissions that are sent to Jeanne Marie.

Items dealing with heraldic titles (listed under "Caid, Kingdom of" below) will appear on the August 25, 2003 Letter of Intent and other approved submissions will be forwarded to Laurel on the August 26, 2003 Letter of Intent.


Caid, Kingdom of

Note that these items are listed only here -- not under the territories. All items listed here will be forwarded to Laurel when both the transfer and acceptance letter have been received.

Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Astrolabe Herald) to Lochac, Kingdom of.

This title was registered to Caid in November 1999. This title has been used for a Caidan CoH staff position and will be used as a staff title in Lochac. The acceptance of this transfer will appear on a forthcoming Lochac LoI.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Blue Lymphad Pursuivant) to Ildhafn, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in September 2002. Ildhafn is registered as Ildhafn, Shire of; they were elevated to Barony on June 21st of this year. As Ildhafn became part of Lochac that same day, the acceptance of this transfer will appear on a forthcoming Lochac LoI.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Blue Mountain Pursuivant) to Dreiburgen, Barony of

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Coral Pursuivant) to Lyondemere, Barony of

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Change of Designator from Dolphin Pursuivant to Dolphin Herald.

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981 and re-registered April 1995. By kingdom law, Dolphin is a Herald and we wish the registered title to reflect this.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Change of Designator from Flame Pursuivant Extraordinary to Flame Pursuivant and Transfer of Heraldic Title (Flame Pursuivant) to Starkhafn, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981. Pursuivant Extraordinary is no longer used as a rank in Caid. The change to Pursuivant is consistent with Caid's policy that all territorial heraldic titles be registered at the Pursuivant rank.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Gold Forest Pursuivant) to Gyldenholt, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in August 1986.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Change of Designator from Golden Antelope Herald to Golden Antelope Pursuivant and Transfer of Heraldic Title (Golden Antelope Pursuivant) to Dun Or, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in November 2000. It is Caidan policy that rank follows the person, not the title, for territorial heralds. It is our desire that all territorial heraldic titles be registered with the designator Pursuivant.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Green Water Pursuivant) to Western Seas.

This title was registered to Caid in November 1983.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Moucheture Pursuivant) to Naevehjem, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in April 1996.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Oak Leaf Pursuivant) to Darach, Shire of.

This title was registered to Caid in July 1983.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Red Tower Pursuivant) to Isles, Shire of the.

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Sable Fret Pursuivant) to Altavia, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in March 1983.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Seraph Pursuivant) to Angels, Barony of the.

This title was registered to the West in April 1981 and transferred to Caid in August 1987.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Seraphim Pursuivant) to Angels, Barony of the.

This title was registered to Caid in August 1987.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Sommelier Pursuivant) to Heatherwyne, Shire of.

This title was registered to Caid in January 1985.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Tour d'Or Pursuivant) to Southron Gaard, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in January 1992. Southron Gaard became part of Lochac on June 21st, thus the letter of acceptance for this transfer will appear on a forthcoming Lochac LoI.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Caid, Kingdom of - Transfer of Heraldic Title (Trident Pursuivant) to Calafia, Barony of.

This title was registered to Caid in April 1981.

Forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Bertone Montanari - New Name and Device:
Or, a bear passant sable and a bordure vert semy of crescents Or.

The submitter is interested in a masculine name and is not interested in authenticity. He will accept no changes (We verified this by phone since the form is unclear), and if the name must be changed, he cares most about the language/culture (Italian).

Bertone a header spelling in Dizionario Onomastico Della Sicilia, by Girolamo Caracausi, p.146. Copies are attached. The cited document indicates Bertoni is a patronymic, dated to 1323.

Montanari is found in de Felice's Cognomi (p. 172, s.n. Montagna). It is undated. As a variant of a header spelling, this name may be registerable. We request the College of Arms' help in dating this surname.

Name and Device are approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Medb ingen uí Fháeláin - Kingdom Resub. Name and Device:
Sable, two wings in vol argent between three estoiles pierced Or

Name previously submitted as Meabh Gwynedd, and returned by Crescent at the June 2003 CoH meeting for mixing Irish and Welsh. Her device was pended at that time due to lack of a name. The submitter does not care about the gender of the name and does not request authenticity. She will accept all changes, and if the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound.

The estoiles are Or pierced sable. We believe that the blazon above is correct since the piercing is the same tincture as the field.

Medb is found in Ó Corráin and Maguire (p. 135, s.n. Medb, early spelling) where it is noted "This is primarily a female name, being one of the twenty most popular names in later medieval Ireland, but it occurs as a male name in the very early period."

ingen uí is the early form of "female descendant of" to match the early spellings of Medb and Fáelán.

Fáelán is found in Ó Corráin and Maguire (p.92, s.n. Fáelán, early spelling), where it is noted "Fáelán is a common early name especially among the royal families of Leinster." The genitive is Fáeláin. When lenited this becomes Fháeláin.

Submitted as Medb ingen ui Faelan -- the name was changed to Medb ingen uí Feláin to make the grammar correct.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Medb ingen uí Fháeláin - Kingdom Resub. Badge:
(Fieldless) In pale two wings in vol conjoined to a water bouget azure

This badge was pended at the June 2003 CoH meeting when the submitter's name was returned by Crescent. We believe the water bouget is large enough to be counted as a sustained charge. If it is ruled a maintained charge, it still seems clear. There were some questions raised as to the identifiably of the water bouget. The consensus was that if you knew what a water bouget was, you could identify it in this emblazon. The submitter has been made aware of this potential problem.

Badge is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Marisse vanden Berghe - Kingdom Resub. Device:
Per bend sable and barry wavy argent and azure, a pegasus salient argent.

Her name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI. Her first device submission, Quarterly barry wavy azure and argent, and azure two pegasuses salient argent was returned by Crescent March 2003 for the appearance of marshalling. Her second submission, Quarterly argent and sable, a pegasus salient barry wavy azure and argent, was returned by Crescent June 2003 for lack of contrast.

This device conflicts with Arianwen of Urquart (July 1980), Vert, a horned pegasus salient argent, armed and unguled azure. There is a CD for changes to the field but nothing for the forced moved in Marisse's device. The horn does not contribute to difference, nor does the tincture of the horn and hooves.

Device returned for conflict.


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Alais de Saint Germain en Laye - New Name.

The submitter is interested in a feminine name and expresses an interest in a name authentic for the 12th through 15th Centuries in France, but does not request help making it authentic. She will accept minor but not major changes. The submitter has been consulted and explicitly allows en Laye to be dropped if required to register the name.

She included ten pages of documentation from the College of Saint Gabriel, much of which does not apply to the submitted name. From the College of Saint Gabriel Report 2606, Alais was a name in use in Artois, ca. 1300; reference is made to Gysseling, Maurits, and Pierre Bougard, L'Onomastique Calaisienne a la Fin du 13e Siecle - Onomastica Neerlandica (Leuven: Institut voor Naamkunde, 1963).

de Saint Germain is referenced to S. Gabriel Report 445; it was a common French locative surname. Reference is made to Duzat and Rostaing, Dictionnaire Etymologique des Noms de Lieux de la France (Paris, 1963) and Colm Dubh, “An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris” (Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, SCA 1996). Saint Germain en Lay is found in Webster's New Geographical Dictionary (p.1048, q.v. Saint-Germain; photocopies included), where it is noted "in full Saint-Germain-en-Laye" and that there is a 14th century castle. Also noted is the fact that treaties were signed there in 1570 and 1632 (as well as later treaties).

As the submitter desires to indicate this particular city, we are forwarding the name in the form submitted. She is aware that en Laye may need to be dropped and has agreed to this.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Wylds, College of (Lyondemere)

Cormac Mór - New Badge:
Quarterly Or and gules.

His name and Device were registered March 2003 and a badge in April 2003. This will not put him over his registration limit. This badge conflicts with Panama (Important non-SCA flag registered September 1995), Quarterly 1 and 4 argent, 2 gules, and 3 azure; however, item 2 on the December 2002 LoPaD (Emma de Fetherstan) was pended in order to determine if this version of Panama's flag should be unprotected. A decision was made in June but has not yet been published. The submitter wishes this to be sent to Laurel on the assumption that this version of Panama's flag will be unprotected. This submission will not conflict with Emma de Fetherstan's device, Quarterly per fess indented argent and gules, assuming that it was registered in June. Between the two there is a CD for changing half the tincture of the field and another for changing the line of division.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Wintermist, Shire of

Kylan Magnusson - New Device:
Per pale azure and Or, a chevron between three crescents counterchanged.

His name was registered in January 2003.

Device is approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Bibliography

Caracausi, Girolamo. Dizionario Onomastico della Sicilia: Repertorio Storico-Etimologico di Nomi di Famiglia e di Luogo, Volume I (A thru H)

Colm Dubh, "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris", (Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, SCA 1996)

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.

Duzat and Rostaing, Dictionnaire Etymologique des Noms de Lieux de la France (Paris, 1963)

Gysseling, Maurits, and Pierre Bougard, L'Onomastique Calaisienne a la Fin du 13e Siecle - Onomastica Neerlandica (Leuven: Institut voor Naamkunde, 1963).

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995.

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977.


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