Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2003/min0307.php on line 9

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2003/min0307.php on line 9

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2003/min0307.php on line 12

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/2003/min0307.php on line 12

Minutes of the 13 July 2003 Meeting

Notes and Announcements

In attendance were: Jeanne Marie Crescent, Lachlan Dolphin, Su Battlement, Kurt Sommelier, Thomas Brownwell, Cormac Mór, Selene Sable Fret, Bruce Oak Leaf, Arthur (incipient) Coral, Skara Skye, Esteban el Rojo, Kean Trident, Balthazar van Brugge and Steffan von Ostdorf.

The next heraldry meetings will be: August 3rd, September 14th, October 19th, November 2nd, and December 14th.

New Policy

Currently all Caidan heraldic titles are registered to the Kingdom. In the past, this was required by the Administrative Handbook. However, this policy was changed by Laurel a while ago and the current version of the Administrative Handbook, (section II.B.4) states, "Heraldic Titles - Titles for the use of heraldic officers at all levels. Titles for Laurel staff are registered to the Society. All other heraldic titles are registered to the branch in which they will be used, but must be approved by the kingdom to which the branch belongs. Heraldic titles may not be registered directly by individuals, but may be transferred to individuals with the approval of the owning branch and the kingdom to which it belongs." Laurel has interpreted this to mean that it is up to a kingdom whether new titles will be registered to the kingdom or the branch and also whether or not existing titles will be transferred. Until this point, Caid has elected to continue the requirement that heraldic titles be registered to the Kingdom.

In the future, heraldic titles must be approved by the Kingdom (Crescent) and will be registered directly to the branch. In addition, Their Majesties have agreed that current heraldic titles registered for a branch's use may be transferred to that branch.

Only one heraldic title will be registered to a given branch. The exception to this is Angels as Caid currently has registered both Seraph and Seraphim for their use. Both titles may be transferred to the Barony.

Note that a heraldic title does count against the registration limit of four names for branches without a ruling noble.

As a reminder, for territorial heralds rank follows the person, not the title. For this reason, all territorial titles will be registered as Pursuivant, though the office holder should use the rank to which they are entitled.

If your branch wishes to accept the transfer of the heraldic title registered for your use, I will need a letter accepting the transfer signed by the herald, the seneschal, and at least one of the ruling nobles (if applicable). The wording should be similar to:
"The <branch name> accepts the transfer of the heraldic title <title> from the Kingdom of Caid."

Their Majesties have already signed a letter of transfer. Please have any acceptance of transfer letters to me by the August meeting for inclusion in the August LoI.

All heralds are strongly encouraged to sign up for the caid_heralds list. This is a very low volume list, mostly official issue (e.g., reminders of meeting dates, news of policy changes, etc.). Heralds requesting help with submissions also use this list, but not frequently - most of these queries seem to go to scahrlds.

As a reminder, please e-mail submission summaries to Jeanne Marie () prior to each CoH meeting. For names, this means a summary of the documentation and of the boxes marked on the form. For armory, this means a blazon. Sending the names only is of minimal help. Folders will be pulled (or created) prior to the meeting for all submissions that are sent to Jeanne Marie.

The typists are now using a standardized format illustrated by the following example:

"The submitter is interested in a masculine name authentic for 14th Century English. He will accept minor but not major changes, and if the name must be changed, he cares most about the language/culture." It is also helpful if those sending e-mail submission summaries also use this format.

Kean de Lacy was elevated to the rank of "Pursuivant". Congratulations!!!

Su politely suggests holding side conversations in the kitchen area, as the living room has a lot of reverberation that makes parallel conversations challenging to hear.

Territorial heralds are required to send in quarterly reports. Those heralds who can make it to the monthly meetings regularly are not exempted from making quarterly reports, though these reports may be abbreviated in that case. Of importance is a summary of awards given at local events, as this acts as a backup cross reference for the Order of Precedence.

Please send event reports in even if there were no awards given (i.e. a "null" report).

The warrant roster will be expiring this month, so all territorial heralds need new warrant paperwork by next month's meeting.

Approved submissions will be forwarded to Laurel on the July 30, 2003 Letter of Intent.


Angels, Barony of

Skara Skye - New Badge:
Gules, three piles palewise wavy Or, the center one charged in chief with a sun sable.

The submitter's name appears on the July 5, 2003 Caidan LoI.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Calafia, Barony of

Danyel de Licatia - New Name.

The submitter doesn't care about the gender of the name and does not request authenticity. She will accept minor but not major changes, and if the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound.

Danyel is found in "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" by Colm Dubh (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html).

de Licatia is found in "Masculine Names from Thirteenth Century Pisa" by Juliana de Luna (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/pisa/pisa-bynames-alpha.html).

A French-Italian name is registerable with a single weirdness (q.v. Tessa Cheval, November 2000).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Thomas Joseph de Lacy - New Device:
Argent, a Lacy knot azure a ford and on a chief azure an arrow Or.

The submitter's name appears on the July 5, 2003 Caidan LoI.

The ford is proper; however, as by definition a ford is a base barry wavy azure and argent, we do not believe proper is needed in the blazon.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Summergate, Canton of (Calafia)

Felice Filadoro - New Device:
Per pale argent and sable, a bee and in chief three trilliums counterchanged.

The submitter's name was registered May 2002.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Gamel of Mottrum - New Name.

The submitter is interested in a masculine name and expresses an interest in a 13th Century name, though does not request help making it authentic. He will not accept minor changes, but allows major changes (we are treating this as though no changes are allowed), and if the name must be changed, he cares most about the sound.

Gamel is dated in this spelling to 1086 and 1273 in Withycomb (s.n. Gemel, p.125).

Mottrum is dated in this spelling to 1248 in Ekwall (s.n. Mottram, p. 332).

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Darach, Shire of

Aclina of Wyvern Heyghts - Laurel Resub. Device:
Per chevron purpure and Or, two compass stars argent and a phoenix gules.

The submitter's name was registered in February 2003. Her previous submission, Purpure, a chevron Or between two compass stars and a phoenix argent rising from flames proper, was returned by Laurel at that time with the following reasoning:

Conflict with Thalassa Ilona of Soilka, Purpure, a chevronelle Or between in chief two scimitars fesswise conjoined at the point proper and in base a flamed tulip proper. There is one CD for changing the type of secondary charges. The flamed tulip is a tulip with petals constituted of flames proper. There is thus no additional difference for changing only half the tincture of the basemost charge, and a very small amount of the tincture of the chiefmost charges (the hilts of the scimitars), as these tincture changes are substantially less than half the group. There is no difference between a single chevronelle and a chevron; at this time we would blazon any single central "chevronelle" as a chevron regardless of how narrowly it was drawn, to be in keeping with period armorial practices.

This is an extensive redesign which eliminates the previous conflict.

This is clear of Muirenn of Wintersedge (registered March, 1997): Per chevron gules and argent, two crosses of lozenges and a phoenix issuant from base counterchanged, with a CD for the field and another for the difference between compass stars and crosses of lozenges.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

James of Wiverneweald - Kingdom Resub. Badge:
(Fieldles) An estoile gules.

The submitter's name was registered May 1998. The submitter's previous badge, (Fieldless) An ermine spot sable was returned by Crescent in August 2001 for redraw. As this is past the defined period for a timely resubmission, the submitter has paid for this resubmission. Unfortunately, this conflicts with Sequora of Zagamar, Gyronny ermine and Or, an estoile gules (July 1974).

Badge returned for conflict.


Jules de la Croix - New Name and New Device:
Argent, a corbie and in sinister canton a cross lorraine sable.

The submitter is interested in a masculine name authentic for 13th-16th century France (language: langued'Oc and culture: northern 'trouvere'). He allows all changes and if his name must be changed he cares most about the language/culture. His device was pended at the June CoH meeting for lack of a name.

Jules is found in Withycombe (s.n. Julius, pp. 184-185) where she states "The French Jules also dates from the 16th C." Dauzat (s.n. Jule(s), p.348) states that it is a baptismal name used by at least two saints and a pope in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Jules Cezar de Bernier appears in "Names from a 1587 Tax Roll from Provins" by Aryanhwy merch Catmael (http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/provins1587.html).

de la Croix according to the submitter is found in Sereville and Saint Simon, Dictionaire de la Moblesse Française, La Societe Française au XXe síecle, Paris, p. 579 as an "(French, Langued'Oc) Ancient noble family… Guillaume de la Croix, who brought the barony of Castries in 1496". No copy of this documentation was provided. Dauzat (s.n. Croix, p.163) has Delacroix, meaning "living in a house situated near one or more crosses." We are leaving the byname in the form submitted and ask the College's help in documenting it in this form.

We believe that this device is clear of Susannah Makejoy (registered April 2000), Argent, a cock close within a bordure sable. There is a CD for type of secondary. Laurel ruled (January 2000 Cover Letter) "In the future I will be more likely to grant difference between different types of birds when they are (a) different in period, (b) in a period posture, (c) drawn correctly, and (d) there is some visual difference." Corbies and cocks are both period birds, in both cases they are in a period posture (close), there should be a visual difference between a cock and a corbie, and the corbie is drawn correctly. We assume that the cock is also drawn correctly given its recent registration. Thus there should be a second CD for the type of bird.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Rosa Maria di Cosenza - New Badge:
Gules a cross flory Or within eight roses in annulo argent.

The submitter's name appears on the April 30, 2003 Caidan LoI. The submitter intends to always display this badge with the roses in a circle, thus roses in annulo is the appropriate blazon rather than an orle of roses.

There was some discussion on whether or not this was too close to the reserved rose wreath or chaplet. The only relevant precedent we could find states:

This was returned before in part because the orle of flowers was too similar to the restricted wreath of roses. This issue has not been addressed in the resubmission, and so this must be returned once again for this reason. It was suggested that if the submitter would clearly separate the individual flowers in orle, that this would probably remove the problem." (LoAR October 1990, p.13)

In this case the roses are clearly separated, which Crescent believes is sufficient to take this clear of a rose chaplet. The submitter has been informed of this potential problem and wishes this to go forward anyway.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Lyondemere, Barony of

John Alton - New Name and Device:
Azure, in saltire a sword inverted and a quill pen a chief Or.

The submitter is interested in a masculine name, and expresses an interest in a name authentic to 16th C England but does not request help making it authentic. He will not accept major changes but will accept minor ones. If the name must be changed, he cares most about the language/culture.

John is the header spelling in Withycombe (pp. 178-179), and was in common usage from the 12th C forward.

Alton is a town in Southwest England. "The Old Hampshire Gazetteer" by Martin and Jean Norgate (http://www.envf.port.ac.uk/hantsgaz/hantsgaz/hantgazf.htm, 2001), shows Alton pictured on a map dated 1607. Reany and Wilson (p. 9) note under the name that it is derived "From one or other of the many places of this name", and they date it to 1246.

We have found one John Alden, a signer of the Mayflower Compact in the early 1600's, and we believe that the submitted name has an aural conflict with it. As John Alden appears in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, he is important enough to protect.

We note that this device was completely conflict checked and no conflicts were found. It is however being returned for a redraw based on multiple problems: the forms are either a poor color copy or printed on an inkjet printer, causing the Or to appear orange. Also, the primary charges need to be drawn more clearly (particularly the quill pen). Drawing them larger so that they fill the space on the shield and using some internal detailing should help make them identifiable.

Name returned for conflict. Device returned for redraw.


Una Orcadiana - Appeal of Laurel return of name change.

This name was returned on the LoAR of April 2003 with the following reasoning:

The elements in this name have a temporal disparity of more than 1000 years. Una is a Gaelic name dated to 1310 and later. Orcadiana is a locative byname referring to the Orkneys. The root of this byname is Orcades, dated to the mid-2nd C in section II.A.1 of Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn's article "A Consideration of Pictish Names" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/pictnames). As these two elements are dated to more than a millennium apart, this name must be returned.

The return is being appealed on the grounds that Orcades is not merely dated to the mid-2nd C, but as late as the 17th C. Examples have been provided of maps naming the group of islands north of Scotland as Orchides (1490), Orcades (1570), and again Orcades (1605). (Examples are from "The Vinland Map and the Tartar Relation" by Skelton, Marston & Painter, Yale University Press, 1965; plates XVI, XVII, and XIX. See photocopies.) Orcades is the correct Latinization for the Orkneys all the way to the end of period. Therefore, the byname Orcadianus/Orcadiana, the adjectival construction given by Mistress Tangwystyl from the root Orcades, must similarly be valid all the way up to the end of period.

This is presented as an appeal, rather than a simple resubmission, to make it plain that we are addressing the specific reason for return given in the LoAR of April 2003. With that specific reason addressed, no new documentary requirements should be admitted as valid.

Úna is an Irish name popular in late Medieval Ireland. The submitter would like to drop the accent mark and Latinize the name to Una, as shown in Woulfe (p. 218) under Úna.

This submission is being forwarded to Laurel with the College's complete support.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Southron Gaard, Barony of

Christian Baier - Kingdom Resub. Device Change:
Per chevron pean and erminois, three lion's faces counterchanged Or and sable.

The submitter's current name Cristie ni Cairbre O'Callanáin was registered in February 1992. The name change to Chrisitan Baier appeared on Caid's Feb. 21st LoI and should have been ruled on in June. Upon registration her current device, Per chevron pean and erminois, two panther's faces Or enflamed proper and a Celtic cross sable (February 1992), should be retained as a badge.

This same submission was returned by Crescent December 2002 as the printout of the form showed orange, not Or. Crescent was to resubmit this device at the January 2003 CoH meeting; however, for some reason this never happened. Her file contained partially colored forms as well as outline drawings. Note that the submitter is now a subject of Lochac due to the transfer of territories in June. As we have the paperwork at hand, and the submitter and local herald requested that this be handled through Caid, we are treating this as a pended item. Giles Crux has been contacted and has no objections to this submission being completed through Caid.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Bibliography

Aryanhwy merch Catmael. "Names From a 1587 Tax Roll from Provins. WWW: Sara L. "Friedemann, 2002.
(http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/provins1587.html)

Colm Dubh. "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris." Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic Symposium 1996. SCA: Montgomery, Alabama; WWW: SCA, Inc., 1997.
(http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html)

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. 4th ed. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press. 1987.

Juliana de Luna. "Masculine names from Thirteenth Century Pisa."
(http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/pisa/pisa-bynames-alpha.html)

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press, 3rd ed. 1995.

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford Uni. Press 3rd ed. 1977.

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967.


Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer