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Minutes of the 4 May 2003 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Sep 03 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The next heraldry meetings will be: June 15th, July 13th, August 3rd, and September 14th.

In attendance are: Jeanne Marie Crescent, Lachlan Dolphin, Bruce Oak Leaf, Eirikr Gold Phoenix, Elisabeth Goodchilde, Kean Trident, Kurt von Arriksleva, Lara Cheri, Rhorek Chevron, Selene Sable Fret, Steffen von Ostdorf, Stephania Gold Forset, Su Battlement, Thomas Brownwell, Typhainne d'Alixandre, Umberto Lotovico.

For those that are not aware of the recent changes in the CoH: Jeanne Marie Lacroix stepped up as Crescent at Crown Tourney, Lachlan of Cromarty is now Dolphin, Selene Colfox is sending letters to submitters informing them of Laurel's decision regarding their submissions, and Su of the Silver Horn is regent for the heraldry track at Collegium Caidis.

The New Zealand territories will become part of Lochac next weekend, at Lochac's Crown Tourney. From Benedict of Askerigg, Blue Lymphad - "... my sincere gratitude and thanks to all the members of the Caidan college of heralds for the many times they have assisted and corrected and advised me on my journey from novice cornet three years ago, to Blue Lymphad Pursuivant that I am now. In particular I would thank Dietmar Herald, Master James and Jeanne Marie Crescent for their tutilage and generosity with time and books."

If your group has a presentation for Coronation/QC please contact Crescent () by May 26th so it can be added to the schedule. If your group has a presentation for Festival of the Rose, please let Crescent know at least a week in advance.

The January LoAR had several items of interest:

1. Request for reconsideration - In summary, if you have a client who made a request for authenticity and is unhappy with the changes Laurel (or Pelican) made they can request reconsideration. All requests must either: (a) be supported by new documentation supporting the original name as complying with the requested authenticity, (b) submit a timely request for a name based on information provided in Laurel's decision, or (c) include a request that the original name be considered with no request for authenticity. Such reconsideration may be considered with the standards in effect at the time of the request. For purposes of fees, a request for reconsideration is considered a resubmission. Caid currently does not charge for resubmissions made within a year of notification to the client.

2. Request for comment on major changes to the Glossary of Terms.

2. Request for comment on "Beyond the Encyclopedia", dealing with mundane name conflicts.

3. Request for comment on proposed changes to RfS X.4.j - changes to tertiary charges.

See the LoAR (which is available on-line) for complete details. If you are interested in commenting, please provide the comments to Crescent by May 26th for the May LoC or the June CoH meeting for the June LoC.

Forwarded submissions will appear on the May 28, 2003 Caidan Letter of Intent.


Calafia, Barony of

Anne du Beausoleil - New Name and Device:
Per pale azure and Or, a sun counterchanged

She will not accept major changes and wishes a female name.

Anne is found in Dauzet, Noms et prénoms (p 10) where it is described as a biblical name.

Beausoliel is found in Morlet, Noms de Familille (sn Beausoliel, p. 89) which states, "n. topogr. Et n. de liew-dit assez fréquent (midi) qui a désigné un lieu, une terre exposée au soleil." (Fairly common locative designating open land, exposed to the sun)

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Jordan of Marlborough - New Device:
Per chevron gules and sable.

His name appears on Caid's October 1st LoI. His original device was returned for conflict against Geoffrey FitzDavid, Per chevron gules and chevronelly Or and sable. This is a complete redesign.

Conflict found: Eliza O'Donegan, Per chevron vert and sable. Using a per chevron inverted field division or a complex line of division would clear this conflict.

Device returned for conflict.


David ui Naill - New Name and Device
Vert, a hand appaumy within two lizards in annulo argent.

The name is identical to the submitter's mundane name, David O'Neal. We must return this name for conflict. We recommend that the submitter use mac Naill if he wishes to use a name that is similar to his mundane name.

Name returned for conflict. Device pended (without conflict check) for lack of name.


Michael Trahy - New Name and Device:
Per bend Or and sable, a bend gules ermined Or between a Cornish chough proper and a tower Or.

The submitter will allow all changes. He desires a masculine name, and cares most about the sound.

The name Michael is found in Withycombe, pg. 218, dated to 1196.

We found Trahy in MacLysacht, (sn (O) Trehy, p. 289), dated to the early 1600's. Submitted as Michael Trahey. We have changed the spelling to conform to the documentation.

The color copied emblazons had a bend which was distinctly not gules. It had to be colored red before being forwarded. Submitters are reminded to avoid using color copies or printouts on their submission forms.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Poll na Gainmhe, Canton of (Calafia)

Hans Schneckenberger - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale azure and Or, two castles counterchanged and on a chief vert an arrow Or.

His name appears on Caid's November 10th LoI (redated by Laurel to December 3rd). His previous submission, Per pale gules and Or, two castles counterchanged, was returned by Crescent in October 2002 for conflict. This is a substantial redesign.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Darach, Shire of

Lorenz Wieland - New Device:
Azure, a winged bottle bendwise sinister between in pall three forks tines to center argent.

His name appears on Caid's November 10th LoI (redated by Laurel to December 3rd).

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


William Hethfeld - New Name and Device:
Sable, an armored wolf statant contourny ululant argent.

Submitted as William Heatherfield.

The submitter desires a masculine name, has requested authenticity for 15th Century English and permits minor changes. If the name must be changed, he cares most about the language/culture.

We found William in Withycombe, p.293, introduced to England the 11th C. Reaney & Wilson date it in this spelling to 1299, under the header Williams.

We have been unable to find the submitted spelling in any form, and note that under the header Heather, Ekwall states that "heather, found from 1335 in OED, chiefly in the north, is rare in pl.ns. We are changing the name to conform to the documented form Hethfeld, found under the header Heathfield in Ekwall, dated to 1275, which means, "Open land overgrown with heather".

The device conflicts with Haroun ibn al'Dhi'b al-Abyadh, Sable a wolf passant to sinister argent, in base a simitar fesswise reversed Or and Guillaume le Chien Blanc Sable a samoyed dog counterstatant proper and a chief argent.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for conflict.


Darton, Shire of

Alys de Wilton - New Badge:
(Fieldless) An attire sable

Her name appears on Caid's October 1st LoI.

Badge approved and forwarded to Laurel


Bernard Stirling - New Name:

The submitter has checked no boxes.

Bernard is found in Withycombe 3rd ed (sn Bernard, p. 48) dated to 1273.

Reaney & Wilson (sn Stirling, p. 428) have Gilbert Stirling 1269 and John Stirling 1327.

Name approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Francesca Martini - New Name and Device:
Per fess indented and per pale azure and ermine

The submitter is interested in a feminine name. No other boxes are marked.

Francesca is found 34 times among the 1562 women listed in Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427 by Arval Benicoeur (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/). We also found it in de Felice Nomi (sn Fancesco, p. 175) where is listed as a feminine form. The masculine form is listed as a personal name in the 11th and 13th centuries; however, the feminine form is apparently undated.

In FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532 edited by David Herlihy, R. Burr Litchfield, Anthony Molho, and Roberto Barducci (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte), Martini occurs 242 times in the sub-page "List of Surnames (Surnami) in the Tre Maggiori with the Number of Records for Each" (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/doc/). We have also found the surname Martini as a header spelling in De Felice Cognomi, p. 163.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Ceara ingen Conaill - New Badge:
Vert, a compass rose argent

Her name was registered 01/2000

This design conflicts with Alexandre sur la Mer, Azure a compass rose argent.

Badge returned for conflict.


Max Erich von Baden - New Device
Per pale gules and sable, two flamberges in saltire Or surmounted by a skull argent.

His name appears Caid's April 30, 2003 LoI.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Morgan Mac Máeláin - Laurel Resub Device:
Per bend argent and Or, a hawk striking sable tailed and a triquetra gules.

The submitter's name was registered by Laurel in April 2002. His original device design, Ermine, a hawk striking wings displayed sable tailed and in chief three triquetras gules was returned by Laurel in September 2002 due to conflict. This is a substantial redesign.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Rosa Maria de Cosenza - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale argent and vert, a cross flory and on a chief gules three roses argent barbed vert.

Her name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI. Her original device design was returned by Crescent in April 2003 for redraw. This redesign fixes the reasons for that return.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Rosa Maria de Cosenza - New Badge:
[Fieldless] In pale, a rose gules conjoined to a cross flory Or.

Her name appears on Caid's April 30, 2003 LoI.

This design has insufficient overlap to be considered appropriate conjoining for a fieldless badge. Several redesigns were suggested with the rose entirely covering the fleur-de-lys on one of the cross' limbs.

Badge returned for redraw.


Steffen von Ostdorf - Resub Kingdom Device:
Gyronny Or and sable, a lion reguardant and in sinister canton a cross flory gules.

His name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI, incorrectly spelled as "Steffan". The submitter's original design, Gyronny sable and gules, a lion rampant regardant and in sinister canton a cross fleury Or was returned by Crescent in April 2003 for redraw. This redesign fixes the reasons for that return.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Brian McRay - New Device:
Per pale argent and vert, a thistle and a drawn bow with a nocked arrow reversed counterchanged, on a chief gules three goblets Or.

His name was registered 09/02.

According to precedent, this is not slot machine:

[considering a strung bow and arrow along with another charge] the question was raised as to whether or not this is considered slot machine since it has three dissimilar charges in one group. While it is true that it has three charges, when a bow and arrow are in their standard, expected position they are considered one charge, just like a sword in a scabbard is considered one charge. It is only when they are separated, or put into non standard positions for their normal use, such as being crossed in saltire, that they become two separate charges. (Innogen Mac Leod, 4/99 p. 6)

Also, there is some question whether this exceeds the rule of thumb for complexity. If the bow and arrow are considered one charge for this rule as well, then the complexity count is eight, making this design barely registerable.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Wylds, College of the (Lyondemere)

Caitilin inghean Eoin - New Name and Device:
Azure, in pall three natural dolphins embowed tails to center within a bordure argent.

The submitter is interested in a feminine name. If the name must be changed, she cares most about the sound, and possibly the language/culture. She indicates an interest in having her name be authentic for "Irish", but does not request that it be made so. She will not accept major changes.

All elements can be found in "Index of Names in Irish Anals" by Kathleen O'Brien. Caitilin is dated to 1486 (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Caitilin.shtml).

inghean is dated to 1411 (same URL).

Eoin is dated to 1446 on the same website (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Eoin.shtml).

We note that both names have forms with and without accent marks. The submitter has chosen to use the unaccented forms. Originally submitted as Caitilin Inghean Eoin. We have changed the capitalization to match documented forms.

Possible conflict found: Mikhail the Varangianin (badge, Nov 1993 via Atenveldt) Azure, three drinking horns interlaced in a triskelion, pierced by their own tips within a bordure argent. If this design is considered to contain a triskelion of natural dolphins, then these designs probably conflict. If these dolphins are in pall, then the designs are probably clear. We are pending this item to consult with the client whether she wishes to proceed, or make changes to clearly avoid the conflict.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device pended to consult with client.


Southron Gaard, Barony of

Griffin de Novum Castrum - New Name and Device:
Argent, in pale a griffin and a castle vert between two pallets sable.

Submitted as Gryphon de Nova Castria.

Please contact submitter in Southron Gaard to approve these changes.

The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will not accept major changes. If the name must be changed he cares most about the sound. He requests a name authentic for 11th-13th century.

Gryphon is asserted to be a derivative of Griffin (Old Welsh or Cornish) - meaning "long nose". Morgan & Morgan's Welsh surnames lists on page 102 the form Griffin, used extensively in the medieval period as an anglicized and Latinized version of the given name Gruffydd. We have not found the submitted spelling, so we are changing it to conform to our sources.

de is the French (Norman) and the Latin preposition "of".

Nova Castria is Latin for "New Castle" and is the original name of Newcastle Upon Tyne, which was named after the "new style" motte and bailey castle built there after the Norman invasion. Reaney & Wilson (sn Newcastle, p. 321) have Geoffrey de Newcastle dated 1246-7. We did not find this spelling. Ekwall (sn Newcastle upon Tyne, p. 339) lists the latinate versions Novum Castellum (1130), and Novum Castrum (1254). We could not find a feminine form similar to the submitted, so we are changing it to the documentable masculine Latin form.

The device has two unidentifiable charges on it. We recommend thatr submitter make the pallets much smaller, spread further apart, and significantly enlarge the two vert charges. We also believe that if the submitter made the background paly argent and sable, then the two charges could be enlarged and placed over the pallets.

Name approved as changed and forwarded to Laurel. Device returned for redraw.


Héloïse de Mont Saint Michel - New Name and Device:
Per chevron vert and gules, a chevron between two fleurs-de-lys and an eagle Or.

The submitter is interested in a feminine name that is authentic for French. she will allow all changes. The scanned forms did not match the official submission forms. New forms were created at the meeting. Original forms and new forms will be sent to Laurel.

Héloïse - refer Abélard and Héloïse. Webster's Biographical shows this spelling under the header Abélard, dated to 12th C.

de French locative marker

Mont Saint Michel is documented from http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Western_Europe/France/france2.htm where it states "Le Mont-Saint-Michel ... islet in northwestern France, in the Gulf of Saint-Malo, connected by a causeway with the mainland." And "The first chapel on this site was founded in 708 ... the Abbey takes the name of Mont saint Michel. ... During the Hundred years War the fortifications of Mont St. Michel were reinforced (1420) ... the village that grew up and around the abbey lies huddled within the fortifications and includes a Romanesque parish church, remodeled in the 15th century." Columbia-Lippincott indicates that the abbey was formed in 706, and that six remaining abbatial buildings on the isle were built in the 13th C. We note that the submitter has not included any hyphens, so we have left them out. While all of our book references show the name with the hyphens, it is our understanding that this is a modern convention and that the submitted form is acceptable within period.

Name and device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Starkhafn, Barony of

Dmitrii Seryi - Kingdom Resub Device:
Per pale sable and azure, a sword proper between two wolf's jambs couped argent.

His name appears on Caid's April 30th LoI. His previous submission, Sable, a sword argent hilted and pummeled Or handled azure, overall a wolf's jamb sable, was returned by Crescent for lack of contrast. This design fixes these problems.

Device approved and forwarded to Laurel.


Katharine de Mirabeau - New Device:
Purpure, on a pale sable fimbriated four Bowen crosses Or.

Her name appears on Caid's March 1st LoI.

Device conflicts with Catherine de Montlhéry, Purpure, on a pale sable fimbriated, three feathers bendwise sinister argent.

Device returned for conflict.


Roch Sanglier - New Device:
Per saltire sable and purpure, a fleur-de-lys between four frets conjoined in fret Or, the interior of the mascles counterchanged, all within a bordure Or.

His name appears on Caid's March 1st LoI.

Returned as the blazon does not adequately describe the emblazon, in particular the interiors of the mascles are counterchanged of the field giving color on color. Please recommend to the submitter to avoid using an ink jet printer for their resubmission.

Device returned for redraw.


Bibliography

Arval Benicoeur. "Feminine Given Names from the Online Catasto of Florence of 1427." (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/catasto/).

Castles of the World. "Mont Saint Michael." (http://www.castles.org/castles/Europe/Western_Europe/France/france2.htm).

Dauzat, Albert. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

Dauzat, Albert and Rostaing, Ch. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux de la France. 2nd ed. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1963. Guénégaud, Paris.

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.

De Felice, Emilio. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. 4th ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1987.

Herlihy, David; Litchfield, R. Burr; Molho, Anthony; Barducci, Roberto editors. "FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532." (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte).

Morgan, T. J., and Morgan, Prys. Welsh Surnames. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1985.

O'Brien, Kathleen. "Index of Names in Irish Anals" (http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Feminine/Caitilin.shtml).

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford University Press, 3rd ed. 1995.

Seltzer, L. E., ed. The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Morningside Heights, NY: Columbia University Press, 1952.

Webster's Biographical Dictionary, First Edition. G & C Mirriam Co. Publishers, Springfield, Mass. (1951)

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford University Press 3rd ed. 1977.


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