Minutes of the 24 February 2002 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Sep 2002 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Future heraldry meetings are scheduled for Mar. 24, Apr. 14, and May 19.

E-mail pointers have been established in effort to ensure that when the office changes hands, the published e-mail address will remain the same.

(list maintainer)
(Order of Precedence)

All heralds are encouraged to join the caid-heralds e-mail list. It is generally a low volume list, and a great place to get help and exchange information. To join the mailing list, send an e-mail to with "subscribe caid_heralds" in the body of the message. You can join from an address other than the one from which you're sending the message by including the address you'd like to subscribe: "subscribe caid_heralds <name@address.org>"

Collegium is next weekend. There will be a consultation table most of the day on Saturday; please come and lend a hand. There will be a number of heraldic classes offered, everyone is encouraged to attend. There will be a class on the duties of a territorial herald - this is a required class for all territorial heralds who have not previously taken it.

In order to meet the requirements of Corpora and kingdom law, warrants are required for all territorial heralds. Each herald will need to provide proof of membership (a photocopy of your current membership card) and a request for warrant signed by your Baron/Baroness or seneschal (if you are herald for a Shire or College). At-large heralds will be warranted through Crescent. Crescent asks that all requests for warrant be recieved on or before Crown Tourney, April 20. Remember that the status of each territory depends on a full roster of warranted officers. Please help make this process as painless as possible.

The College is looking for a new home for heraldry meetings. If you are interested in hosting the meetings and live in the downtown Caid area, talk to Eirikr about what this entails and to Dietmar about the requirements to be met.

Draft precedents for the Laurel tenures of Elsbeth Ann Roth and François le Flamme are available at: http://home.earthlink.net/~mranc. These precedents are current through Oct. 2001.

The March CP incorrectly states that CP Prize Tourney is July 6th. The correct date is July 13th - Heatherwyne Anniversary is July 6th.

Ambre is looking for volunteers to teach at Fall Collegium. In particular, she is looking for beginning and intermediate classes. A reminder to send event reports to Christopher Golden Rose.

The results of the November LoAR were covered. Crescent reminds all that paperwork must go through the territorial herald or directly to Crescent. The territory is where the client considers "home" if they indicate the branch on the forms. Otherwise, submissions will be processed according to mailing address.

Altavia, Barony of

Jonathan Drake of Skey (New Name)


The submitter is interested in a masculine name and if the name must be changed he is most interested in the sound.

Jonathan is found as a heading on pp. 179-180 in Withycombe with the comment "found as a Christian name in the 13th C."

Drake is found as a heading on p. 141 in R&W and dated to 1185 in this spelling.

Skye is an island off Scotland with an entry on p. 1781 of CLG. It is not dated in the desired spelling, but is dated to 1292 with the spelling Skey.

Submitted as Jonathan Drake of Skye, the submitter was present at the meeting and agreed to change the name to the period spelling Skey.


Kristene neyn Donyll (Name Change from Deirdre inghean Dhomhnaill mhic Maidec)


The submitter's current name was registered in Mar. 2000. She is interested in a feminine name, will not accept major changes, and if the name must be changed she cares most about the language/culture of late-period Scotland.

Kristene is found dated in this spelling to 1532 in "Early 16th Century Scottish Lowland Given Names" by Sharon L. Krossa (http://www.medievalscotland.org/scotnames/lowland16/womenalpha.shtml).

neyn is a Scots patronymic marker meaning "daughter of", see for example MacCorquodale on p. 477 of Black which notes that "Effric neyn Cortgitill, is authoress of a poem in the Book of the Dean of Lismore." This entry falls between entries dated 1509 and 1569.

Donyll is a patronynic found under the heading MacDonald on p. 486 of Black, with McDonyll dated to 1521.


Angels, Barony of

Kevin Daniel Madoc (New Device)

Per chevron checky purpure and argent and sable, in base a chimera statant argent

His name was forwarded on Caid's Oct. 20, 2001 LoI.


Calafia, Barony of

Aurich Rivenhall (New Name and Device)

Per chevron argent and paly vert and argent, a chevron erminois and in chief two ravens addorsed sable


The submitter desires a masculine name and will not allow major changes.

Aurich is found as an undated heading on p. 24 of Bahlow/Gentry.

Rivenhall is found as a heading on p. 389 of Ekwall. Dated spellings include Ruuenhalla 1068 and Rivheal 1195.


From the precedents of the 2nd part of Da'ud's 2nd tenure:

[returning Per bend sinister argent and checky bendwise argent and gules, a bend sinister Or...] The field here, being half metal and half color and metal, is not a neutral field, but is 75% metal. Thus, the bend sinister is in violation of RfS VIII.2.a. and VIII.2.b.i. (Elrich the Wanderer, 4/95 p. 9)

Because this field is likewise more than half metal, it cannot be surmounted by a metal charge.


Eoin Blackwolf the Warrior (Kingdom Resub Name)


The submitter is interested in a masculine name and will not accept major changes. His previous submission, Eoin Blackwolf, was returned at the Oct. 2001 CoH meeting for conflict with John Blackwolf.

Eoin appears in this spelling as a heading on p. 88 of ÓC&M, which indicates that it is a Gaelic borrowing of the biblical name John. The spellings Ioan and Eoan are dated to the 13th century.

Blackwolf is a locative byname based on an inn sign. Colm Dubh's article in KWHS AS 33 has multiple listings for color+animal inn signs, including: the Blewbore 1601, Alexander Grayhorse 1485, Whitharte c.1600, le Whighthorse 1518, and Alicia Whitlanbe 1379. Other listings have color+animal as two words.

He is using the Warrior under the lingua anglica allowance. Nia, meaning "warrior, champion", is found as a by-name in "Early Irish Feminine Names from the Index to O'Brien's Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae" by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/irish-obrien.html).


Liudmila Vladimirova doch' (New Device)

Per pale Or and gules, a sun in splendor counterchanged

The submitter's name was registered in May 2000.
We believe that these arms are clear of Ajax Thermopylokles: Per pale Or and gules, a Gorgon's head cabossed gules (Sep. '93 - East) by R.f.S. X.2 Substantially Different Charges - Simple armory does not conflict with other simple armory if the type of every primary charge is substantially changed.


Quintin Phelan (Laurel Resub Name)


The original submission, Quinn Phelan, was returned by Laurel for lack of documentation of the given name. The submitter would still prefer Quin or any variant which begins with Qu. The submitter very clearly states that meaning, location and time period are unimportant. We beg the College's aid in finding a name with the appropriate sound.

Quintin is found undated under the heading Quentin on p. 248 of Withycombe, which states that the name was brought to England by the Normans. It is also found as a variant of Quentin, a heading on p. 504 of Dauzat, which indicates it is a personal name derived from saintQuintinus.

From the August 2001 LoAR:

The LoI documented Quin from Dauzat's Noms et Prenoms, p. 504. Dauzat gives no indication whether this is a given name or a surname.

Morlet's Dictionnaire Étymologique de Noms de Famille (which is a revised edition of Dauzat's Noms et Prenoms) indicates that Quin is derived from the given name Jaquin, which is in turn derived from Jacques. However, Morlet does not indicate whether Quin was used as a given name or a surname.

It was noted that the byname Mac Quyn is documented to 1403. As this is an Anglicized form of the Gaelic Mac Cuinn (a patronymic formed from the Gaelic masculine given name Conn), it was suggested that Quin could be an Anglicized form of this given name. However, Qui- reflects the pronunciation of the genitive form Cuinn and would not reflect the pronunciation of the nominative form Conn. As such, it would not be a logical Anglicization of the given name Conn. Since all other documentation gives evidence of Quin only as a surname, we must assume Dauzat is also referring to a surname. Barring evidence of the use of Quin as a given name in period, it is not registerable as a given name.

Either Conn Phelan or Phelan Quin (or Phelan Quinn) would be registerable. However, since the submitter only allows minor changes, we must return this name."

We are taking Laurel's advice and choosing a readily documentable first name to accompany Phelan.

Phelan is found on p. 245 of MacLysaght as an Anglicized spelling of the pre-Norman surname (Ó) Faoláin.


Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Mary Dedwydd verch Gwallter (Kingdom Resub Device)

Vert, three piles argent, each charged in chief with a flame azure

The submitter's name was registered in Nov. 2000.
This is a complete redesign of her previous submission, which was returned in June 2001 for redraw. The submitter is advised that the three piles should be of equal width, and should all issue from the chief.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Cassaundra Igraine of Gwynedd (New Badge)

[Fieldless] Three harps conjoined Or within and conjoined to a rose wreath vert flowered Or

The submitter's name was registered in Aug. '87.
She was made a countess of Caid in Nov. '87 and is thus entitled to a rose wreath in her badge. She wishes the specific number of roses (9) to be blazoned, as there is special meaning for her. However we don't blazon the number of charges when there are more than six unless they are in a particular arrangement, such as "ten roses four, three, two and one".


Morgan MacMaoláin (Kingdom Resub Device)

Argent, a hawk striking wings displayed sable, tailed gules and in chief three triquetra gules

The submitter's name was forwarded on Caid's Dec. 1, '01 LoI.
His previous device, Argent, a hawk striking wings displayed sable tailed, on a chief gules three triquetras argent, was returned for conflict in December 2001. Cigfran Myddreal Joserlin, the Raven: Argent, a raven rising reguardant wings disclosed proper in the dexter claw a sword gules. (Aug. '76 - Middle?) There is only a CD for the addition of the triquetra.


Morgan MacMaoláin (Kingdom Resub Badge)

[Fieldless] A hawk striking wings displayed sable tailed gules sustaining a triquetra gules

The submitter's name was forwarded on Caid's Dec. 1, '01 LoI.
His previous badge, [Fieldless] A hawk sable tailed maintaining a triquetra gules was returned in December 2001 for conflict with Colm Dubh: [Fieldless] A dove stooping, wings addorsed, sable. (Jun. '90 - Caid) Making the triquetra a co-primary has cleared the conflict.


Ildhafn, Incipient Shire of

Fulk de Cherbourg (New Name and Device)

Per pale vert and gules, a chevron throughout sable fimbriated between two dragons combatant and a warhammer argent


The submitter wants a masculine name and will accept any changes, but cares most about the culture and sound, being authentic for 12th-14th century Norman/French.

Fulk is found under the heading Folk on p. 173 in R&W, with the example Willelmus filius Fulk dated to 1177. It is also found as a heading on p. 123 of Withycombe, where the author indicates it was popular with the Angevin dynasty and gives the examples Fulke 1273, Folc 1292, and Fulk 1567.

de is a Latin or French locative preposition.

Cherbourg is found on p. 384 of CLG, which notes that this Norman town was probably of Roman origin with its port gaining importance through history.


Isles, Shire of

Decimus Claudius (New Name and Device)

Per chevron argent and sable a chevron gules between two pairs of hammers in saltire sable and a lightening bolt bendwise sinister argent


The submitter is interested in a masculine name. He will not accept major changes and if the name must be changed he is most interested in the sound and an unspecified language/culture (presumably Roman).

The name was submitted as Decius Claudius. Decius is found on p. 393 of Le Glay which states "Decius, however, is not properly to be numbered among the usurpers, since he succeeded in seizing power from Philip and his son and keeping it for over two years." The date is about AD 250. Decius is identified as a Roman gens on p. 60 of Cassell's. The submitter must have a given name, so the name was changed from Decius to Decimus. Withycombe includes the given name Decimus as a heading on p. 80, being Latin for "tenth". On p. xviii she lists Decimus as a praenomen cited by Varro in 116-27 BC.

Claudius, who was emperor from AD 41-54, is found on p. 214 of Le Glay. Under the heading Claud(e) on p. 68, Withycombe says "French, from Latin Claudius, the name of two famous Roman gentes..."

The submitter is advised to draw the lightening bolt thicker. There is a possible conflict with Rognvaldr Tilbuinn: Per chevron argent and sable in pale a chevron gules and a mullet of ten points argent, in chief two mallets in chevron sable (Dec. '88 - Ansteorra). It's not clear from the registered blazon whether or not there is a difference in the number of primary charges from the submitted device.


Mora Ottavia Spadera (New Name and Device)

Quarterly gules and purpure, a gynosphinx dormant contourney wings elevated, a bordure rayonny Or


The submitter desires a feminine name appropriate to 16th C. Venice, and she will accept all changes.

Mora is found undated, as is usual, under the heading Moro on p. 270 of de Felice's Nomi.

Ottavia and Spadera are documented from Veronica Franco, Celebre Poetessa e Cortigiana de Secolo XVI photocopies of which were provided, but no bibliographic information was included. Ottavia is also found on p. 292 in de Felice's Nomi under the heading Ottavio. Finally, we found Spadaro on p. 239 in de Felice's Cognomi, which appears to be a variant spelling of the submitted name.

We found no conflicts. Unfortunately, we were unable to identify the gynosphinx, as the two distinguishing features of the monster (a woman's head and bust) are completely obscured by its dormant posture. It must be redrawn.


Owain ap Pwyll (New Name and Device)

Lozengy sable and argent, a fox rampant and a border embattled vert


The submitter wishes a name that is appropriate to Welsh language and culture.

Owain is found in Academy of St. Gabriel report 366 which states

...a 14th century poetry collection known as the Hendregadredd manuscript variously uses the spellings "Ewein," "Owein," and "Ywein," of which "Owein" appears most commonly. The spelling that you propose -"Owain"- is the standard modern spelling, and we can find spellings with "-ai-" in the 14th century in (of all places!) French employment records for Welsh mercenaries. These records include the spelling "Owain," as well as a number that clearly follow French spelling rules rather than Welsh ones. In general, in Welsh spelling, the "-ei-" spelling was just beginning to be replaced by the "-ai-" spelling in the 14th century - a change that was more characteristic of the 15th-16th century. Both are "correct" for the 14th century, but the "Owein"-type spelling would appear to be more "typical" at this point.

The references for the report are:

Jones, Heather Rose. "Names and Naming Practices of the Anglesey Submissions of 1406" based on: Roberts, Glyn. "The Anglesey Submissions of 1406" in The Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies vol.XV.

Jones, Heather Rose. "Welsh Names in France in the Late 14th Century" based on: Siddons, Michael. "Welshmen in the Service of France" in The Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies vol. XXXVI.

Morris-Jones, John & T.H. Parry-Williams, editors. "Llawysgrif Hendregadredd." Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1971.

ap is a Welsh masculine patronymic marker.

Pwyll was not documented by the submitter. We note a precedent from the tenure of Jaelle of Armida:

Pwyll is strictly a mythological name, and therefore not suitable for use in SCA names. We have dropped Pwyll in order to register the rest of the name. ([Denison ap Morgan] LoAR Feb. '97 A - Outlands).

Without documentation of period use, we cannot forward this name.

We note that this device has very low contrast and lacks identifiability. We recommend that the submitter choose other tinctures when he resubmits the name.



Bahlow, Hans. Dictionary of German Names. translated by Edda Gentry, University of Wisconsin, Madison: Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, 1967, English version: 1993.

Black, George F. The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989.

Colm Dubh. "English Inn & Tavern Names of the Middle Ages." Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic Symposium 1998. SCA, Inc., 1998.

Dauzat, A. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et Prénoms de France. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1987. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

De Felice, E. Dizionario dei Cognomi Italiani. 4th ed. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.

De Felice, E. Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore. Milan, 1986.

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. 4th ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1987.

Le Glay, Marcel, Voisin Jean-Louis & Le Bohec, Yann. A History of Rome

MacLysaght, E. The Surnames of Ireland. 6th ed. Dublin: Irish Academic Press, 1985.

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [ÓC&M]

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford University Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Seltzer, L. E., ed. The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Morningside Heights, NY: Columbia University Press, 1952. [CLG]

Simpson, D. P., ed. Cassell's Latin & English Dictionary. New York: Macmillan, 1987.

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford University Press 3rd ed. 1977.

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer