Minutes of the 11 November 2001 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the April 2002 LoAR, with one item (House of Five Belles) on the May 2002 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Jeanne Marie announced that the first version of Master Francois's precedents, covering August 2001, are now available at http://www.drakesheight.com/jeannemarie/sca/pelican.html and http://www.drakesheight.com/jeannemarie/sca/wreath.html. All of the draft precedents are linked from http://www.drakesheight.com/jeannemarie. (NOTE: These are now at http://home.earthlink.net/~mranc/)

As a reminder, please e-mail submission summaries to Jeanne Marie () prior to each CoH meeting. Copies of the submissions may also be faxed to her at [suppressed for privacy; contact Jeanne Marie for the #].

Wreath Queen of Arms is requesting comments on two issues: 1) Should brown be given a CD from a heraldic tincture such as sable? 2) Is the current CoH policy regarding proper brown animals correct? Wreath requests that your research, and your discussions about what you believe the proper policies should be, in time for the March 2002 Laurel meeting. There is a fairly extensive discussion of this issue in the August 2001 Cover Letter.

If you have any thoughts, beliefs, etc. about the topic of brown objects registered as "Proper", read the latest LoAR and send your comments to Laurel by March. You must provide support for your comments.

The next meeting is December 16th. Following the meeting will be the traditional Yule party. Bring a gift for the gift exchange, valued at $10 or less, wrapped. Bring your tabard for the traditional annual picture.

Eridana requests instructors for courses in upcoming Collegia Caidis. This spring there will be one basic class and open submission consultation for Saturday and advanced classes Sunday. She is requesting an advanced class on How to Name a Household / Order / Group for the fall 2002 Collegium in Calafia.

Master James brought a book titles "Anglo-Norman Armory - Two", available for about 25£.

Wreath herald also recommends that the amount of internal details should be used with restraint, and if you copy a source that is heavily shaded or detailed you may decrease the recognizability of the charge. Some details are necessary, but more is not necessarily better.

Reminder of copy number needed by the Caidan CoH staff:
2 name forms and documentation - 1 stays in kingdom, 1 goes to Laurel
3 color device forms - 1 stays in kingdom, 2 go to Laurel
2 BW device forms - 1 stays in kingdom, one goes to Caid's Scribe Armarius.

Christopher Leland D'Eyncourt needs your reports! He is certain that there were many more awards given in the last 6 months than he has been informed of.

Altavia, Barony of

Æduin of Skye (New Name Correction/Appeal)


The submitter's name was registered as Ædwin of Skye in 03/01. The submitter wants a masculine name and will not accept minor changes to the name. His name was originally submitted as Æduin of Skye and he requested that it be registered as such. It was sent on the Caid LoI as Ædwin of Skye, this was an error on the College's part.

Æduin is found in Withycombe on p. 95 dated to 1086.

of Skye is currently registered to him.

This may need to be a name change with Kingdom paying the cost - check the Admin Handbook.

Katerina Falconcrest (New Name and Device)

Vert, a bend sinister between a falcon reversed and an oak leaf bendwise sinister argent


The submitter wants a feminine name. She will not accept major changes and if the name must be changed she cares most about the sound and language/culture. She is interested in having a name authentic for 13th-16th century English.

The submitter considers the excessive black veining to be artistic and we therefore did not blazon it.

Katerina is found in Withycombe on p. 187 under the header spelling Katharine. The name is dated in this spelling to 1196-1215, 1273, and 1428.

Falconcrest The OED dates crest as meaning the summit of a hill or mountain (definition 5b, p. 602) dating 1340. We found no examples of <animate creature><crest> as a placename or other byname.


Angels, Barony of

Bridget Lucia Mackenzie (New Badge)

Per pale purpure and argent, two swords in saltire and in chief two roundels all counterchanged

registered 01/98
This is clear of Per pale purpure and argent, in pale a bunch of grapes and two swords in saltire all counterchanged registered to Serverin Viconti in Jan 1986. Technically this is clear with a CD for changing the number of primary charges and one for adding the secondaries. Even if the grapes are considered secondaries, this is clear for changing the type and number of secondaries.


Francesco Cristi (Kingdom Resub Device)

Per pall inverted vert, azure, and ermine, in chief two doves displayed erminois

approved at the October 2001 meeting
His device, Per pall inverted vert, azure, and ermine, two doves displayed heads to sinister Or was returned for conflict with Fabian Arnett von Schwetzingen, Quarterly sable and argent, in bend two eagles displayed, heads facing sinister, Or. Changing the tincture of the birds clears this conflict.


Calafia, Barony of

Crassus Tacitus Iccius (New Name)


The submitter wants a masculine name. If the name must be changed, he cares most about the language/culture (1st century A.D. Latin). He will not accept major changes.

Crassus is found on p. 178 of Lempriere under the heading Crassus, the grandfather of Crassus the Rich, who never laughed. Plin 7, c.19.

Tacitus is found on p. 604 of Lempriere, Tacitus C. Cornelius, a celebrated Latin historian

Iccius is found on p. 293 of Lempriere, a lieutenant of Aggrippa in Sicily.

The name does not appear to be formed correctly for a Roman name. Crassus and Tacitus are both gens or nomen names (family names). Iccius could be a cognomen or nomen but we cannot tell which this is. In Latin there would generally be a nomen, cognomen, and praenomen.


Eridana Ambra Dragotta: House of Five Belles (New Household Name)


Her name was registered 11/93. The submitter will accept minor changes. If the name must be changed she cares most about the sound.

The formation of the name follows that of inn signs. English Sign Names, Mari Elspeth ni Bryan, http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/inn shows Sevenstar under number + (other item). The cited documentation is R&W, p. 401 under the header spelling Sevenstar. Dated spellings are Sevensterre-1355, Seuesterrys-1379, and Sevensterre-1384.

Five is found in the OED compact edition p. 1011-266. It is dated in this spelling dated to 1308 meaning the abstract number five.

Belle is found on p. 36 of R&W under the heading Bell where John atte Belle is dated 1332. R&W state this (atte Belle) "denotes one who lives at the sign of the Bell". Bardsley dates Bell to 1307,1522. Belle is also dated in the OED, compact edition p. 196-784 to 1235 and 1538 meaning hollow body of cast metal formed to ring. Another period definition is a nautical term meaning 30 minutes to mark time on watch.


Guillaume Du Buisson (New Name and Device)

Argent, a bend azure in chief a dragon rampant gules


The submitter will not accept minor changes to his name. He wishes a masculine name appropriate to 13th - 15th C Norman English.

Guillaume is found in Dauzat (noms et prénoms) on p. 314 as given name "moyen age". It is also found in Withycombe on p. 293 under the header spelling William. Withycombe notes it is from old German Willahelm compound of vilja 'will' and helma 'helmet' and "It became Guilielm and then Guillaume in French and was introduced into England by the Normans in the 11th C". Guillaume is also found in Colm Dubh's "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris" at http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/paris.html.

Du Buisson is a locative byname. Buisson is a small town listed in Columbia Lippincott as the header spelling. It is also found in Dauzat (noms et prénoms) on p. 73 as the header spelling with the note "petite locatalite". Various undated spellings include Dubuisson, Boisson, Bouisson, etc. It is found in this spelling, with a capital D, in "Sixteenth Century Norman Names" by Cateline de la Mor http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/cateline/norman16.html.

No conflicts with this device found by the college.


Johne de Oakford (New Name and Device)

Sable a dragon sejant argent and on a chief embattled Or, four lozenges gules


The submitter will not accept major changes. If the name must be changed she caress most about the sound. She doesn't care about the gender.

Johne is found in Withcombe on p. 177 under heading Joan. It is dated in this spelling to 1459.

Oakford is found in Ekwall on p. 347 as the header spelling. Dated spellings Alforda DB, Acford 1166 RBE, Ocford 1224 C. 'Meaning ford by the oaks'. The modern spelling is undated. de Oakford is a locative surname formed in the usual manner for Norman English, similar to de Okeden dated to 1332, found in Reaney & Wilson, p. 327 under the heading Oakden.

No conflict found on the device.


Seraphina Sacheverell (New Name and Device)

Per pale and per chevron gules, Or, sable, and argent, three Jerusalem crosses counterchanged argent and sable


Seraphina is found in Withycombe on p. 266 as the header form. It is the name of an early saint.

Sacheverell is found in Withycombe on pp. 261 as the header form with the notation "the surname of an ancient, but now extinct family." William Sacheverell is dated to 1638-91. It is also found on p. 389 of R&W as the header spelling with John de Saltcheverel dated to 1199, Nicholas Suacheverel to 1247-8, and John Saucheverell to 1456.


Seraphina Sacheverell (New Badge)

Argent, a Jerusalem cross sable

Conflict with Jerusalem, Argent, a cross potent between four crosses couped Or. This is an alternate blazon for a cross of Jerusalem.


Sibylla Greystone of Stotesbury (New Badge)

[Fieldless] Two goblets conjoined in bend sable


Dreiburgen, Barony of

Bronwyn uerch Maelgwn o Gwynedd (New Name)


The submitter wants a feminine name appropriate to 12th C Wales. She will accept minor changes to the name only.

Bronwyn has been deemed unacceptable with period naming practices, as it was the name of a non-human in the Mabinogion. In addition, it is a masculine name which makes the feminine patronymic which follows to be incompatible.

uerch is an alternate form of the Welsh feminine patronymic, interchangeable with verch and ferch.

Maelgwn o Gwynedd is a personal name found in Gruffydd, p. 67, under Maelgwn. We note that the addition of the masculine patronymic o is grammatically correct but not idiomatic, and that the addition of the "o" would lenite the patronymic that follows to be Wynedd.


Cáel of Skye (New Name)


The submitter wants a masculine name. If the name must be changed he cares most about the language/culture and he is interested in having his name authentic for 12th century Scottish.

Cáel is a masculine name found in OCM on p. 40 as the header spelling. "In the early period this name is found principally in the south. It was borne by one of the heroes of the Finn-tales."

Skye is found in Johnston on p. 296 as the header spelling with Scy dated to 1266 and Skey to 1292.

The name was submitted as Cael of Skye (no accent).


Havelok MacClellan (Kingdom Resub Device)

Sable, a chevron argent fretty gules between three dogs heads couped contourny argent

registered 12/97
His first submission was returned in Kingdom for conflict. His next submission, identical to this submission but a complete redesign from his first submission, was returned in Kingdom 01/00 for lack of identifiability of the dogs heads.


Steffan the Scrivener: House Bar Fly (New Household Name and Badge for household)

[Fieldless] A housefly displayed Or

The submitter's name was registered 02/90. The documentation provided for this name "The household is intended for SCA members who frequent "Baen's Bar", the chatroom on the Baen Books web site at www.baen.com. Those who frequent the chatroom call themselves "Bar Flies". Hence, House Bar Fly."
The badge is to be associated with the household name "House Bar Fly". The device was not conflict checked.


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Eoin Finn mac Cionaioth (Kingdom Resub Name)


His first attempt, Ian MacKinnie was returned at the June CoH meeting for conflict. He will accept any changes and wants his name to be authentic for 15th-16th C. Irish.

The name is documented in the St. Gabriel report 2363 (http://www.panix.com/~gabriel/public-bin/showfinal.cgi?2363) which is summarized as "A Gaelic name like <Eoin Finn Mac Cainnigh> or <Eoin Liath mac Cionaodha> is a fine choice for your period."

Eoin -- The letter states "As we discussed already, <Eoin> is a fine name for your period, the most common Gaelic form of <John> [1]." The cited reference is [1] Arval Benicoeur, "Concerning the Names Iain, Ian, and Eoin" in The Problem Names Project (WWW: Sharon L. Krossa, 1999). http://www.medievalscotland.org/problem/names/iain.shtml.

Finn -- The letter states "<Fionn> "white, fair, fair-haired, handsome" was rather common in 16th century Irish Gaelic, typically spelled <Finn>." The relevant references are:

[7] Dwelly, Edward, _Faclair gaidhlig: A Gaelic Dictionary_ (Herne Bay [Eng.] E. Macdonald & co., 1902-[11]), s.nn. fionn, liath.

[8] Royal Irish Academy, _Dictionary of the Irish Language: based mainly on Old and Middle Irish materials_ (Dublin : Royal Irish Academy, 1983), s.nn. finn, liath.

[9] Jones, Heather Rose (aka Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn), "Fourteenth to Sixteenth Century Irish Names and Naming Practices" (WWW: J. Mittleman, 1999). http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/tangwystyl/lateirish/

[10] Cournane, Mavis, Vibeke Dijkman, and Ivonne Tummers, "Annals of Connacht" (WWW: CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts: a project of University College, Cork, Ireland, 1997), entries 1422.5, 1422.7, 1501.6, 1508.6, 1519.17, 1543.11. The first four digits of the entry number are the date for which it was recorded. The word <Finn> appears as <Find> in some entries; this is an archaic spelling, generally not used in your period. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100011

mac Cionaoith -- The letter states "<McKenney> is an English form of two different Gaelic names in Ireland: <mac Cainnigh> "son of Cainneach" and<mac Cionaodha> or <mac Cionaoith> "son of Cionaodh or Cionaoth" [2, 3]". The cited references are: [2] Woulfe, Patrick, _Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall: Irish Names and Surnames_ (Kansas City: Irish Genealogical Foundation), s.nn. Mac Coinnigh, Mac Cionaodha and [3] Donnchadh O/ Corra/in & Mavis Cournane, "Annals of the Four Masters", six volumes (WWW: CELT: Corpus of Electronic Texts: a project of University College, Cork, Ireland, 1997-98), entries M1189.1, M1370.6. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G100005C.


Santine Westmerland of Ravenstonedale (New Name and Device)

Azure, on a chevron between three bees Or three fleurs-de-lis azure


The submitter doesn't care about the gender of the name. The submitter was present at the meeting and noted that if necessary for registration she will reluctantly allow Westmerland to be dropped. The name is of the form is given name-inherited surname-locative.

Santine is a feminine form of Santin. Santin is found in Colm Dubh's article "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris".

Westmerland is found in R&W on p. 483 under the header spelling Westmoreland with John Westmerland' dated to 1379.

Ravenstonedale is found in The Columbia Lippencott Gazetteer on p. 1561. Private e-mail correspondence from The Book House, which is the Ravenstonedale historical center, is included. The highlights "Ravenstonedale certainly existed before the Norman conquest" and "In 1336 the Manor of Ravenstonedale was owned by one Torphin." Ravenstonedale is also found in Ekwall on p. 382 as the header spelling. Rauenestindal is dated to 1223 and Ravenstandal to 1251.


Santine Westmerland of Ravenstonedale (New Badge)

Per bend sinister Or and azure, a fleur-de-lis and a bee counterchanged


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Helga Idasdóttir (Kingdom Resub Device)

Per fess engrailed azure and vert, in chief a natural dolphin argent

Her name was approved at the October 2001 CoH meeting.

Her device was returned for the use of a complex line of division with low contrast colors. The return is being appealed. The text of the appeal is included below.

There is a Bruce precedent stating:

Purpure and sable are the darkest of heraldic colors, and there's insufficient contrast between them to permit identification of the embattled line. Rule VIII.3 requires all elements of the design --- including complex lines of division, if any --- to be identifiable. The Rule goes on to give examples of cases that wouldn't be identifiable: "For instance, a complex line of partition could be difficult to recognize between two parts of the field that do not have good contrast if most of the line is also covered by charges." Those examples are just that: examples, not an exhaustive list. It is quite possible for a complex line of partition to be unidentifiable, even if not covered by charges; that is the case here ...An objective test for identifiability can be found by researching period armory. There are some cases of divided fields using all-colors, with no separating ordinary; sable/gules, azure/gules, and vert/gules were far and away the most common combinations. There are many cases of divided fields (color/metal) with complex lines of partition; indented and wavy were the most common, though there are examples of nearly all our permitted lines. A cursory search found a handful of period cases with a divided field, using two colors and a complex line of partition: e.g. the arms of Hugh de Neville, c.1245, Quarterly indented gules and vert, a bend Or; and of West, c.1470, Quarterly indented azure and gules, a bend argent. I found neither an example of an embattled division of any two colors, nor any field party of sable and purpure. Admittedly, my search was brief, but I suspect a longer search would still yield no period examples. If Party embattled purpure and sable was not used in period, it would be for the same lack of identifiability as with this submission.

My best advice is simply: use a color combination found in a period example ...Beyond that, neither I nor the College can say which color combinations will have sufficient identifiability, until we see them; that, after all, is the ultimate test of identifiably. (Landric Dægmaer, August, 1992, pp. 25-26)

There are precedents specifically disallowing complex lines with the combinations purpure/sable (Landric Dægmaer, August, 1992, pp. 25-26) and sable/azure (Anastasiia Novgorodskaia, 10/99, R-Meridies). No other color combinations have been specifically ruled against.

There is an Elsbeth precedent which implies that azure/vert is an allowable combination:

[Per bend sinister wavy azure and vert, a Latin cross bottony] By long-standing precedent we do not allow a charge to overlap a low contrast complex line of division except when the overlap is so small that the line of division is not obscured. In this case the arms of the cross interfered with the identifiability of the wavy line. [Matilda Merryweather, 07/00, R-Ansteorra]

The wording of this return makes it seem that the field would have been registerable if the cross did not overlie the line of division. In Helga's case, there is no charge to obscure the line of division.

Since Bruce's 1992 precedent, the following azure/vert combinations with complex lines of division have been registered:

  • Per fess indented azure and vert fretty Or, in chief a sun Or (Ælfred Greybeard, September 1993)
  • Per fess embattled azure and vert, an increscent Or and a domestic cat sejant argent (Branwen Madyn Wallis, March 1994)
  • Per fess wavy azure and vert, a natural dolphin hauriant within a bordure argent (Ceara inghean Dhalbhaigh, February 1996)
  • Per bend wavy azure and vert, three bendlets wavy and in chief a harp argent (Thalia Woodhall, March 1996)
  • Per fess enarched azure and vert, a stag trippant Or (Declan de Burgo, June 1996)
  • Per fess indented vert and azure, a dance and in base a laurel wreath Or (Trìòis, Shire of, September 1997)
  • Per bend sinister wavy vert and azure, a thistle and a compass rose Or (Cathal Macdoyl, February 2000)
  • Per bend sinister wavy azure and vert, a cat sejant and a cat sejant contourny Or (Ailitha ingen Chathail, May 2000).
  • Per bend indented azure and vert, three mullets argent and a sword proper (Connall Ruadh Ó Ceallaigh, May 2000)
  • Per fess wavy azure and vert, an otter passant and a reed pen bendwise sinister argent (Catherine O'Herlihy, June 2001)

We believe that the emblazon would more clearly show the line of division when it is painted or sewn rather than colored with the requisite Crayola markers. We do not feel that this submission should be penalized for using the recommended coloring implements.

In summary:

  1. There is no ruling against an azure/vert field with a complex line of division.
  2. There are recent registrations of azure/vert fields with complex lines of divisions.
  3. There is no charge to obscure the line of division on this submission.
  4. We admit to marginal contrast but believe that this is partially due to use of the "mandated" Crayola markers and that even so, there is sufficient contrast to permit registration.

Given the fact that the azure/vert combination with a complex line of division has not specifically been ruled against in the past, and given that this color combination has been registered with a complex line of division as recently as June 2001, we ask the College of Heralds to forward this device for a decision by Laurel.

Papworth notes only and single example of a per fess field of two colors, Gyles -- Per fess gules and azure.

An Ordinary of Arms from the Lyon the Office, vol. II 1902-1973 notes Per fess wavy azure and vert a salmon naiant proper (fourth quarter) have been remartriculated this century in Scotland.

Dictionary of British Arms, Medieval Ordinary Volume 1, there is one example of a field divided between two colors. That example (Harssyke found in Shy86 Shirley's Roll, 15th century) is Per bend indented sable and gules, with the editorial note that there are four indents.

Crescent notes that the line cannot be identified across the room. He therefore does not support the appeal. Eridana - this goes on the LoI as a new device with the note that the submitter is appealing the Caidan CoH's return - at least a summary of the appeal needs to be included on the LoI.


Isles, Shire of

Aibhílín inghean uí Mhanacháin (New Name)


If the name must be changed, the submitter cares most about the language and culture. She wishes a female name authentic to 16th C Irish. She did not check either box regarding minor or major changes.

Aibhílín is found in "Irish Names" O'Corrain and Maguire, 1990 ed. pg. 84, under heading of Eibhlín.

Mhanacháin is from Woulfe, 1967 ed. pg. 595 under heading of O'Manacáin.

Original submitted as Aibhílín ni' Mhanacain. We have changed the surname to make it correct for the 16th C. We are replacing the modern with inghean; adding the to indicate "descendent of", rather than "daughter of" because in Woulfe we only find the surname used (Ó Manacháin), and not the direct patronymic (Mac Manacháin); and leniting the surname with the addition of the center "h".


Lyondemere, Barony of

Cristal Fleur de la Mer (Laurel Appeal Name)


Her name was registered as Cristal Fleur Delamare in March 1998. This is being appealed. The appeal from the submitting herald is included below:

The name was originally submitted as Cristal Fleur de la Mer. In the documentation section of the original name form is, "de la Mer - [Dauzat] pg. 415...meaning 'of the sea.'" The instructions at the bottom are "Please correct minor errors to preserve the meaning" and "Please do not correct minor errors to preserve the sound." The instructions on this out-of-date form do not allow major changes to a name.

The November 1997 Caid LoI had,

We are unable to document the submitter's original name, del la Mer, so we are correcting it to Delamere [Dauzat (noms de famillie), p.415, under Mare since the submitter allows this.

Please note that "del la Mer" was not the submitter's intended spelling.

The name was then registered by Laurel in March 1998 as "Cristal Fleur Delamare," with no comments regarding the additional surname spelling change.

The client's original intended surname "de la Mer" is easily justified as the common French for "from the Sea (or Seashore)" Furthermore, the surname "de la Mer" has been registered fifteen times between July 1979 and May 1998, including five submissions from Caid, both before and after the client's original submission date. In addition, "de la Mere" has been registered four times between May 1992 and November 2000. I thus contend that the name should not have been changed at either Kingdom or at Laurel, but registered as submitted (de la Mer).

It is my belief that the submitter's name was changed accidentally by Crescent due to a misreading of the submitter's handwriting. This was then changed again by Laurel for unknown reasons. The resulting name is unsatisfactory to the client, and in her opinion constitutes a major change from her intent. As the client's intended surname appears to be acceptable in the SCA, her entry in the Armorial should be corrected to "Cristal Fleur de la Mer".

The College notes that we indeed had a typographic error in our LoI, forwarding the misspelled Delamere instead of the documented Delamare. But we agree with the submitter that the number of previous and subsequent registered names with the locative de la Mer indicates that this surname is acceptable for SCA usage, and that this name should have been registered with the submitter's original spelling. We are therefore forwarding this appeal with our full support, namely that the locative de la Mer is a reasonable locative surname, and that the change of spelling, while preserving the sound, was contrary to the submitter's instructions to preserve the meaning.


Starkhafn, Barony of

Caiterina an Failenn ui Faolchaidh (New Name)


The submitter wants a feminine name.

Caiterina is found in Mari Elspeth nic Bryan's article "Dated Names Found in Ó Corráin & Maguire's Irish Names" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/ocm/ dated to the 15th C and should be on p. 45 under the header Caiterína.

Failenn is found in the same article dated to 805 and should be on p. 93 under the header Faílenn.

Faolchaidh is found on MacLysaght on p. 103 under the header spelling (O) Falsey.

Double given names are not allowed in Gaelic. Also, "an" means "the", which cannot be combined with a given name. Rather than changing this to ingen Failenn (and then leniting it) or dropping one of the given names, this is being returned for the submitter to decide how she wants the name handled. We note that the patronymic should by uí Fhaolchaidh.


Conrad Breakring (New Name Change)


His current name, Conrad Breakring of Ascelon was registered 05/95 via An Tir. He desires a masculine name.

Both name elements are grandfathered to him; the new submission simply removes the locative.


David mac Ean (New Name)


No boxes were checked on the form.

David is found in Black on p. 202 under the header spelling Davidson with le fiz David dated to 1296. It is also found in Withycombe on p. 70-80 and is dated to 1086.

Ean is found in Black on p. 510 under MACIAN with M'Ean dated to 1538.


Fatinah Sameera al-Zarqa' Alimah (New Name)


The submitter wants a feminine Arabic name. She will not accept major changes and if the name must be changed she is most interested in the meaning "enchanting companion of blue eyes who is skilled in dance".

Fatinah is found at http://www.sudairy.com/arabic/fem.html as a feminine Arabic name meaning "fascinating, captivating, alluring, enchanting" under the heading Fatin or Fatinah.

Sameera is found at http://www.sudairy.com/arabic/fem.html as a feminine Arabic name meaning "entertaining female companion" under the heading Samirah, Sameera.

al-Zarqa is found in Da'ud's "Arabic Naming Practices and Period Names List" at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/daud/arabic-naming as a woman's cognomen meaning "the blue-eyed".

Alimah is found at http://www.sudairy.com/arabic/fem.html as a feminine Arabic name meaning "skilled in music or dance". A copy of the webpage is included.

We are unable to justify this name formation. We called Master Da'ud for his advice, and he clearly indicated that the submitted name would never have been used in period, and that this name would be returned by Laurel. There are no double given names in Arabic. Fatinah appears to be a modern name. Sameera means "prostitute". Alimah appears to be a modern name. Da'ud suggests that if the submitter wants the epithet "the dancer", she should use the laqab al-Rakkasa. So if the submitter wished, the following similar names should be acceptable: Fatimah al-Zarqa' al Rakkasa, or Sameera al-Zarqa' al-Rakkasa.


Sovrana Rosa Medonia Baldini (New Name and Device)

Azure, a capital l S Or, on a chief embattled argent a natural panther passant sable


Submitter will not accept major changes.

Sovrana is found in "Feminine Given Names From Thirteenth Century Perugia" by Arval Benicouer at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/perugia/perugiaFemAlpha.html, appearing once in the data.

Rosa is found in the same article, appearing five times.

Medonia is found in the same article, appearing three times.

Baldino is documented from "FLORENTINE RENAISSANCE RESOURCES: Online Tratte of Office Holders 1282-1532", edited by David Herlihy, R. Burr Litchfield, and Anthony Molho.Florentine (http://www.stg.brown.edu/projects/tratte/). Baldini is listed twice as a surname, as is Baldoni, but Baldino is listed 26 times as a given name. The replacement of the final "o" with a final "i" changes the name from the nominative to the genitive, as needed for a marked patronymic.

We note Dame Elsbeth's precedent:

Submitted as Giulia Maddalena Sardone di Nicolo. As Kraken put it,

In Italian, by the time that we find (a) double given names and (b) family surnames, I would expect the direct patronymic to have disappeared. On the other hand, given patronymic surname is unexceptional. Adding the double given name is a weirdness, ...

We have therefore changed the order of the patronymic and the surname.[Giulia Maddalena di Nicolo Sardone, 08/00, A-Caid]

From this precedent it is unclear whether or not a triple given name would be one or two weirdnesses. We are giving the submitter the benefit of doubt and sending this to Laurel. Submitted as: Sovrana Rosa Medonia Baldino.


*note this device was pended due to lack of funds at the meeting that were located)

Wintermist, Shire of

Rose d' Istres (New Name and Device)

Per bend sinister sable and Or, a sword bendwise sinister Or and a rose sable, barbed and seeded proper, slipped and leaved bendwise sinister vert


Submitter will not accept any changes

Rose can be found in Withycombe, p. 258, under Rose. Rose FA is dated 1316. The name has been identified with the flower name but seems to be a derivative of (h)ros 'horse'. It was introduced into England by the Normans in various forms one of which became 'Rose' in Middle English.

Istres is documented from a website at http://www.beyond.fr/villages/istres.html as a French town in Provence which was first recorded in the 10thC as Castrum de Istrio. Istres can be found as the header spelling in Dauzat, Noms de lieux en France, page 363, where the spelling Ystro is dated to 964. It is a town (canton?) on a peninsula on the Adriatic.



Typists Jeanne Marie and Thomas Brownell, Minutes compiled by Eridana


Arval Benicoeur. "Feminine Given Names From Thirteenth Century Perugia" Benicouer at http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/perugia/perugiaFemAlpha.html. J. Mittleman, 1997.

Black, George F. "The Surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning, and History". New York: The New York Public Library, 1946. Ninth printing, 1989.

Colm Dubh. "An Index to the Given Names in the 1292 Census of Paris." Proceedings of the Known World Heraldic Symposium 1996. SCA: Montgomery, Alabama; WWW: SCA, Inc., 1997.


Dauzat, A Dictionnaire Étymologique des noms de famille et Prénoms de France. Librairie Larousse,1951

Dauzat, Albert and Rostaing, Ch. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux de la France. 2nd ed. Paris: Librairie Larousse, 1963. Guénégaud, Paris.

Ekwall, Eilert. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place Names. 4th ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1987.

Johnston, James B., Place-Names of Scotland, 3rd ed. (London: John Murray, 1934)

Mari Elspeth ni Bryan, English Sign Names, http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/inn

MacLysaght, The Surnames of Ireland, 6th edition, 1989

Ó Corráin, Donnchadh, and Maguire, Fidelma. Irish Names. Dublin: The Lilliput Press, 1990. [ÓC&M]

Oxford University. The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. New York: Oxford University Press, 1971. [OED]

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. A Dictionary of English Surnames Oxford: Oxford University Press, 3rd ed. 1995. [R&W]

Seltzer, Leon, , Columbia Lippincott Gazateer of the World, Columbia University Press, 1961

Withycombe, E. G. The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford: Oxford University Press 3rd ed. 1977.

Woulfe, Patrick. Sloinnte Gaetheal ir Gall: Irish Names and Surnames Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1967.

Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer