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Minutes of the 10 September 2000 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Mar 2001 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Crescent called the meeting to order at 11 a.m. He proposes that the next meetings be held on October 15, November 5, and December 17. Crown is next Weekend.

Get submissions to Eridana for the Collegium. Her e-mail is [contact info cuppressed], and she needs to have them in her hands by September 30, one week before the event. You may also snail-mail her at [address suppressed].

Please sign in and list full name and address so that the College's roster may be updated.

No Letter of acceptance and Return has been received since the last meeting.


Altavia, Barony of

Ædwin of Skye (New name and device)

Per bend vert and argent, a sun-cross argent and an anchor sable

Name:
"Ædwin" is found under "Edwin", cited from the Domesday book [Withycombe, p. 95]. "Skye" is found in [CLG, p. 1781], undated. While the combination of Saxon and English is improbably, it appears acceptable by the lingua anglica principle.
Device:
The sun cross was at one time disallowed as equivalent to the astrological symbol, but is permitted [Bruce, Jan 1993 p 12]; it is still disallowed if alone on the (as a letter or abstract symbol) field [Da'ud 2, April 1994, p. 15]. Since in this case it is not alone on the field, this appears acceptable.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Guenevere of Lyonesse (Appeal/ Change of Holding name)

Name:

Guinevere of Altavia = holding name of March 2000 LoAR

On her LoAR of March 2000, Laurel Sovereign of Arms returned the name Guinevere of Lyonesse (with the accompanying armory registered under the holding name Guinevere of Altavia). The explanation given by Laurel consisted of a single sentence

"Lyonesse exists only in legend and is thus not a place anyone would describe themselves as being from." (EAR, LoAR of March 2000, p.12)

The explanation was terse, but we believe we understand the rationale behind it. That rationale seems to contain at least three assumptions on Laurel's part
-- that Lyonesse was considered to exist only in legend;
-- that no one in period would describe themselves as being from a place described in legend;
-- and that SCA persona may not describe themselves as being from a place described in legend.

This appeal rebuts all three of these points.

Taking the points in order First, it's true that Lyonesse is best known from its part in the stories of King Arthur. Malory's work le Morte Darthur, 1470, is perhaps the most famous example, devoting an entire section (the Eighth Book) to the saga of Sir Tristram of Lyonesse. But the Arthurian stories included many places that the writers considered real, and this included Lyonesse. It was considered a historical land in period writings

"Early English chronicles, such as the Chronicon e chronicis of Florence of Worcester, who died in 1118, described minutely and without a suggestion of disbelief the flourishing state of Lyonesse, and its sudden disappearance beneath the sea." (Encyclopedia Britannica, 1911 ed., vol.xvii, p.174)

It has also been suggested that the original versions of Tristram and Lyonesse came not from Cornwall, but from Scotland. The name Tristram derives from Drust or Drystan, which is "of probable Pictish origin" (Minary & Moorman, An Arthurian Dictionary, 1990, pp.44, 110). W.J. Watson's History of the Celtic Place-Names of Scotland, 1986, p.103 (in the entry on Lothian), suggests that Lyonesse is a variant of Lothian, derived from the Latinized Lodonesia through the Norman-French Leones, Leoneis. This is supported by Johnston's Place-Names of Scotland, 3rd ed., 1934, p.243 (in its entry on Lothian), which cites the spellings Lodonesia c.1145 and Loeneis from 1158. When the Tristram stories were linked with the Arthurian cycle, the real land of Leonais-Leonnys-Liones-Lyonesse became associated with the legendary lost land off the Cornish coast.

However derived and applied, the name itself thus appears to have been real; and while the land described as having sunk off Cornwall may or may not have actually existed, there's no doubt that, in period, it was considered to have been historical, not mythical.

The second point, that no one in period would have described themselves as having been from a legendary place, is likewise flawed. Counter-examples may be found in period England. Reaney & Wilson's Dictionary of English Surnames, 3rd ed., rev.1997, p.102 (in the entry on Cockayne), lists the names Hawisa de Cokaingne, 1219, and Geoffrey de Cokaygne, 1228, where Cockaigne is

"...the name of an imaginary country, the abode of luxury and idleness. ... The surname was probably given to one whose habits and manner of life suggested he had come from the fabulous land of Cockaigne."

With specific examples in hand, one cannot flatly declare that legendary lands were never used in period names.

The third point is the most telling. The Society has a very long history of using the Arthurian cycle as a source for SCA names. Nothing in the current Rules for Submission, or in the precedents of the College of Arms, suggests a break from that policy. The Rules explicitly state that

"...name elements, whether invented by the submitter or borrowed from a literary source, may be used if they follow the rules for name formation from a linguistic tradition compatible with the domain of the Society and the name elements used." (Rule II.3, emphasis mine)

There is not a hint that the Arthurian cycle, the Matter of Britain, is incompatible with the domain of the Society.

The only Rule that might forbid a place name from Arthurian legend is Rule VI.2, which forbids SCA names that imply non-mortal status. This policy, too, has been in place for a very long time

"The Rule of the College is that a place name must be a place primarily inhabited by ordinary mortals, not a place where occasionally a mortal was invited to visit. I point out that Dante visited Hades and Arthur dwells on Avalon, and yet neither is acceptable." (WvS, LoAR, 16 Sept 80, p.7)

"It is the consensus of the College of Arms that we continue to allow the use of names and place names from fiction and mythology. So be it. The fantasy source must be compatible with our period. A culture with post-sixteenth century technology is not compatible. The fiction must be about a place where mortals dwelled and the name or place must not violate the prohibition against claiming to be non-mortal." (WvS, LoAR cover letter, 20 Oct 80, p.2)

But Lyonesse isn't in the same category as Avalon. It was indeed a place where ordinary humans dwelt, before it was swallowed by the sea. Sir Tristram of Lyonesse, though he was sometimes forced to deal with magic (as were many of Arthur's knights), was purely mortal.

I can find no subsequent precedent that has disallowed names from the Arthurian cycle, simply because they were from the Arthurian cycle. Quite the contrary prior Laurels explicitly allowed such names, including Lyonesse

"A few commentors had twitches about 'vanished Leonesse' as a possibly nonhuman land. However, in the Arthurian corpus it is clear that Lyonesse is very much a human land, the kingdom of Tristram who is nephew of Mark of Cornwall and adjacent to his lands. In point of fact the land associated with Lyonesse in popular Cornish legend is the land around the Scilly Isles and there is, as Pale noted, considerable evidence that this islands may have been linked by a land bridge as late as the fourth century so that the 'sinking of Lyonesse' would be within the quasihistorical folk memory when the earliest Arthurian accounts were written." (AmCoE, LoAR of March 90, re Aislinn of Leioness)

"Given the use in period of many names from Arthurian, we find the use of an undocumented name of a significant character whose name appears in period Arthurian literature in this form acceptable." (JoA, LoAR of July 96, re Agravaine Rhiwallon)

"However, names from period literature may be used, with some caveats.

  1. Try other sources first - often better documentation can be found.
  2. It has to be a name of a human being in the story. God/dess, elf, dwarf, etc. names aren't usable.
  3. Beware of allegorical names in sources such as the English mystery plays. It is extremely unlikely that we would register Everyman as a name, even though it is found as a name of a human being in period mystery plays, unless actual documentation is found for it as a name for a real person.
  4. And this is subjective - minor characters from minor works may or may not be acceptable. Especially if they do not fit the naming patterns of the time period." (JoA, LoAR cover letter of 28 Feb 99)

(Anent these caveats, we tried #1, but found no other sources for Lyonesse than those already cited; #2 doesn't apply to place-names, but by extension, would allow lands of human habitation, which includes Lyonesse; Lyonesse is not allegorical, so #3 doesn't apply; and since Sir Tristram of Lyonesse is hardly a minor character, and le Morte Darthur hardly a minor work, #4 doesn't apply either.)

To sum up The land of Lyonesse was considered to have been a real place in period, documented in works by period historians, and used by the writers of the Arthurian saga as the home of Sir Tristram. The name Lyonesse itself looks to be derived from the known placename Lothian. Even if Lyonesse were purely legendary, we have examples of real persons using legendary placenames in period. And even if both of these points are disregarded, the Rules for Submission specifically permit placenames taken from legend (under restrictions that don't apply to this submission), and decades of Society practice and College precedent - reaffirmed as recently as last year - support the policy. Therefore, Laurel's return of the name Guinevere of Lyonesse was without foundation, being contrary to the Rules for Submission, to long-standing Society usage, and to period naming practice. We ask that the decision be reversed, and that the name of Guinevere of Lyonesse be registered.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Jared Alexandre Blaydeaux (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A raven striking maintaining in its claws a spur-rowel sable

Name:
For House Ravenspur, registered March 99. Name registered by Laurel in March 1989.
Device:
The submitter has provided a letter from the Herald of Shire Ravenshore with permission to conflict. Unfortunately the letter has technical errors (giving permission to conflict with the arms and not the badge, and has only one signature, that of the herald, and not the seneschal). We don't believe that there is a conflict between these arms anyway, but we have found another conflict of SCA arms Cigfran Myddrael Joserlin the Raven, Aug '76 Argent, a raven rising regardant wings disclosed proper, in the dexter claw a sword gules. There is a CD for the field, no difference for wing positions, no difference for the maintained charge.

BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Calafia, Barony of

Faust le Fuzier (New name)

Name:

Faust is from Dauzat, page 249, which according to the author can be a baptismal name from the St. Faustus. le is the French singular article.

Fuzier is an occupational byname meaning "someone who sells fuseaus [a type of spindle or lace bobbin]", found in Dauzat, page 272, under "Fuzelier". We are not sure if the definite article can be used with the metonymic and rely on the College's wisdom on the issue. The submitter will accept the name "Faust Fuzier" if necessary.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lasairíona inghen Conchúir uí Ciaráin (New name and device)

Purpure, on a chevron between three Bengal tigers' heads cabossed argent marked sable, three thistles palewise proper

Name:
Submitted as "Lasairíona ingen Connacht O'Cerin"; submitter agreed in advance to change to "Lasairíona ingen Conchúr uí Ciarán". "Lasairíona" is the Modern Irish form, found in O'Corrain & McGuire, p. 121 under "Lassar Fhína Lasairíona". "Conchúr" is the Modern Irish form, found on [OCM, p. 57]. "Ciarán" is found as the header spelling in [OCM, p. 51]. The patronymic, being in the genitive, lenites, we show our best attempt at lenition but note that none of us are Gaelic scholars.

NAME (AS CORRECTED) AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lucretia da Napoli (New name)

Name:
Lucretia is from de Felice Nomi, page 241, under Lucrézia. Withycombe dates the name to the mid 16th C. da Napoli means "from Naples", is from de Felice Cognomi, page 175. Columbia-Lippencott lists Napoli on page 1284.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Oswyn Goodryke (New name)

Name:
Oswin is in Searle, page 381. According to the entry, Oswyn is a feminine form. The Academy of St. Gabriel, in it's list of the most common given names in England, at www.s-gabriel.org/names/Christian/fairnames/givennames.html shows the spelling 'Oswyn' as a masculine name. Reaney & Wilson, on page 199, and Bardsley, on page 323, list under "Goodrich (et al.)" the following formsGodric (1066), Godryk (1313), Goderik (1381), Gooderick (header), Goodrick (header), Godrich (1273), Goderich (1388), Godriche (1221),Goodricke (header),Godrick (Rolls of Parliament), Goderiche (1273), andGodrych (Edw. III). These examples clearly show that the use of either an internal or a final "e" are optional, the use of "o" vs. "oo" is interchangable, that "k", "ck", "c" and "ch" are all interchangable, and that "i" and "y" are interchangable. The submitted name requires two changes from any of the documented forms, but each of the changes is readily shown singly above. We feel that the submitted spelling is a reasonable variation based on the many examples given by Reaney and Bardsley, all of which date pre-1600. Furthermore, the form Goodryke can be found at http//www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/names/brasses/lastnameEH.html#g, dated to 1554.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sabine de Caldrewode (New name)

Name:
Sabine may be found in Dauzat, page 533, under "Sabin". Ekwall on page 82 under "Calder" dates Caldre to 1190 and is noted as a tributary of the river Wyre. On pages 530-532 he also dates the use of "wode" = "wood" to the 12th C (e.g. "Wodeford" under "Woodford", 1196, etc.). Black on page 126, under "Calderwood", lists "Calderwode" (1456) and "Calrewode" (1296). We assert that the submitted spelling is a reasonable variant of "Calderwode" with the use of the "re" as shown above.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sean Burnes (Name resubmission Laurel)

Name:
The previous submission, "Seean Dowe" was returned by Laurel 12/99 for conflict with "John Doe". "Sean" is found in [Woulfe, p. 30] and [OCM p. 163]. "Burnes" is found in [Black, p. 117] under "Burness" dated to the early 16th Century. This conflicts with "John Burns", a 19th C. British Labour leader.

NAME RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Tiarnan O'Shea (Appeal/ change of registered name)

Name:

Change from Tighearnán ó Seaghdha registered by Laurel in March 2000

The submitter's name "Tighearnán ó Seaghdha" was, changed from the submitted form "Tiarnán ua Séaghdha", noting that "the documentation for "Tiarnán marks it as a form only found in the 20th century" (and other comments). The submitter wants to change his registered name to "Tiarnan O'Shea", taking advantage of Laurel's policy of no-fee changes to registered forms when significant changes were made to register the name. "Tiarnan" is found in [Woulfe, p. 31], and in [OCM, p.170], and is discussed in an Academy of St. Gabriel report (attached to the submission), which supports a variant spelling "Tiernan" as the most common 14th Century Scots spelling of the given name (the report is for the name "Tiarnan MacPhelean O'Neill"). The submitter recognizes that the form "Tiernan" (reported by St. Gabriel as appropriate for 14th C. Scots) or "Tigernán" (which St. Gabriel says is the Gaelic equivalent) would be more authentic, but would prefer the spelling "Tiarnan" if possible. We note that the submitter's desired spelling is a one letter variation from the form St. Gabriel proposes. "(ó) Shea" is found in under "Shaw" [Reaney & Wilson, p. 404] and is an undated header spelling [ibid, p 332], dating the form "Shea" to 1584 with a note that this also stands for "O'Shea". "(ó) Shea" is also found in [McLysaght, 269] as an Anglicized form.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Tanwayour, Canton of (Calafia)

Alastar the Coursayre (Kingdom Resub Device)

Sable, in pale a woman's head couped and two cannon mounted on ships' carriages, barrels crossed in saltire, a bordure argent

Name:
Approved and sent to Laurel at the May 00 chapter.
Device:

The device was returned at kingdom's chapter of May 00 for lack of documentation of the period nature of the cannon [carriage] as drawn. The submitter provides copies of web pages (http://www.vasamuseet.se/skeppet/krigsskepp/warship.html, and http://www.maryrose.org/ship/armament1.htm) providing pictures of period ship's cannon from the Vasa (sank in 1628) and the Mary Rose (ca. 1512). The emblazons found on this armory are significantly simplified from these pictures, but show a grossly similar carriage consisting of an approximately rectangular carriage supported on small wheels; the cannon itself is extremely simplified, and is missing the lifting rings at the trunnions (which are clearly shown in the example from the Vasa but are not apparent in the example from the Mary Rose) and tailpiece at the "breech" end (since these are muzzle-loaders, there is no breech, per se.), found on both examples. Overall, however, this depiction appears a reasonable simplification/stylization of the carriage and cannon for use in heraldry.

There was discussion concerning whether or not the charges might not be identifiable from a distance but Crescent feels they are reasonably identifiable as ship's cannons.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Alastar the Coursayre (Resub Badge Kingdom)

Sable, two cannon mounted on ships' carriages, barrels crossed in saltire, argent

Name:
Approved and sent to Laurel at the May 00 chapter.
Device:

The badge was returned at kingdom's chapter of May 00 for lack of documentation of the period nature of the cannon [carriage] as drawn. The submitter provides copies of web pages http://www.vasamuseet.se/skeppet/krigsskepp/warship.html, and http://www.maryrose.org/ship/armament1.htm) providing pictures of period ship's cannon from the Vasa (sank in 1628) and the Mary Rose (ca. 1512). The emblazons found on this armory are significantly simplified from these pictures, but show a grossly similar carriage consisting of an approximately rectangular carriage supported on small wheels; the cannon itself is extremely simplified, and is missing the lifting rings at the trunnions (which are clearly shown in the example from the Vasa but are not apparent in the example from the Mary Rose) and tailpiece at the "breech" end (since these are muzzle-loaders, there is no breech, per se.), found on both examples. Overall, however, this depiction appears a reasonable simplification/stylization of the carriage and cannon for use in heraldry.

There was discussion concerning whether or not the charges might not be identifiable from a distance but Crescent feels they are reasonably identifiable as ship's cannons.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Darach, Shire of

Irmele von Grünsberg (Change of primary name)

Name:
The submitter's current name, Amorwynne of Dalriada, was registered by Laurel in June 1981. Submitted as "Irmele Schäfferin von Grünsberg". "Irmele" was found in Talan Gwynek's "15th Century German Women's Names", found on http://www.s-gabriel.org/docs/german15f.html (copy attached to the submission). "Schäfferin" is based on [Bahlow], with the meaning "shepherdess"; since the use of two "surname" forms in 15th Century German is problematic and the submitter asks that we omit the "Schäfferin" if it is problematic, we are omitting this element. "Grünsberg" is a castle in Germany, known in period, now a private residence, documented on the web page http://www.roadstoruins.com/grunsberg.html (copy attached to the submission. "Grünberg" is a town in Hesse; one in Lower Silesia, chartered in 1315; and a third in Austria (all from [CLG]); the form "Grünsberg" is not found in [CLG].

NAME APPROVED AS CHANGED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ciana Masina della Luna (Resub kingdom device)

Azure, on a pale sable fimbriated and endorsed, three crescents argent

Device:
The previous submission, Azure, on a pale sale fimbriated, three crescents argent, was returned for conflict at kingdom; the addition of the cotises clears the previous conflict.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Dreiburgen, Barony of

Basil von Koln (Resub Badge Kingdom)

[Fieldless] A cross clechy sable, the crossbar draped of a cloth argent

Device:
We cannot justify the use of shrouding on a cross and submitter's documentation is not applicable or convincing. On the other hand the device is clearly identifiable and is blazonable so we can find no reasonable argument to return it Hence we are forwarding this to the College for their consideration.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Starkhafn, Barony of

Isidora Ell'eva (Device resubmission Kingdom)

Or, a swan sable and, on a chief gules, three suns Or

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Postmeeting

Except for putting away books, the meeting ended at 3:15. Minutes edited by Selene, Eridonna, James and Crescent.


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