Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1999/min9902.php on line 9

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1999/min9902.php on line 9

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1999/min9902.php on line 12

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1999/min9902.php on line 12

Minutes of the 21 February 1999 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Aug 1999 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Future meeting dates are 21 March, 18 April, 23 May, 6 June, 18 July, 22 August, 12 September, 17 October, 17 November, and 12 December.

Collegium Caidis is coming up!

Don't forget the Caidan Scribal and Heraldic Syposium, May 1st and 2nd in Calafia. Details are in the March Crown Prints, or on the web at http//people.qualcomm.com/nomad/SCA/cshs [Note: page no longer there]. Fliers are also available at the meeting. Cost is $15 for the weekend (including the feast) or $4 for Sunday only. We're looking for articles for the proceedings. You don't have to teach a class to have an article published. Contact the editor (Ragnal Ban [contact info suppressed], if you have anything to contribute.

Crass Commercial Announcement If you are interested in list tree shields, contact Aurum. Crescent says List-Tree shields are "Good Things", for Crown Tourneys especially, without commenting on this particular vendor.

The January Laurel meeting has interesting things. The letters from it will go out soon. Dame Elspeth Ann Roth, Garnet Herald, will now be deputy in charge of Submissions. The formal decision of the next Laurel will be made at the April BoD meeting.

Something being protected as a badge or device does not mean that it is protected as regalia. The specific case in the LoAR involved a threaded needle; the principle applies to most badges. Things protected as regalia are specifically so identified.

Laurel is asking for bids on the 2000 Symposium. Caid will probably be bidding on it. Contact Mistress Astra / THL Astriðr.

Many thanks to those who consulted and cried at Estrella!!!! Now, about Caid/West war...

To subscribe to the caid_herald's mailing list [original subscription directions deleted in favor of a link to the list page.]

As a reminder, the fact that something is in the Pictorial Dictionary means that at one time it was registered. That does not mean that it is registerable now, and in fact it contains a number of charges which are not now registerable.

We discourage the registration of names and armoury for small children. By small children, we mean people who are not sufficiently mature to have settled taste. We allow the use of marshalled versions of the parents' arms for these children so that they can have arms to display.

Crescent wishes to thank those heralds who helped out at Estrella, and a good time was had by all, especially the Drachenwald herald...

Submissions Considered

Alix de Beaumont Per chevron inverted purpure and sable, between a chevron and a chevron inverted interlaced a comet argent

Alonso Giovanni da Lavorno Gules, a saw fesswise and a chief invected Or

Cassandra Zoë Paganel Azure, a silkie proper and in chief three flames Or each charged with a goute azure

Desert Star, College of Sable, a sun Or eclipsed gules and on a chief argent three laurel wreaths azure

Emrys Fitz Rainold de Venoix; [Fieldless] Three winnowing fans Or

Erwin Bloodridge Per chevron argent and gules, two wolf's heads erased sable and a double-bitted axe bendwise sinister argent

Gabbriella Mocenigo Per chevron sable and argent, two winds respectant argent and a moon in her plenitude sable

Gwendolyn of Amberwood: House Lantern's Keep; [Fieldless] On a cogwheel sable a lantern Or enflamed proper

Jamie Snawberd of Ross Argent, an ardvark rampant and on a chief embattled vert a hammer dulcimer Or

Judwiga Czarnpika z domu Piast ze Smokza Jamy Gules, an eagle striking argent, on a chief Or two spears in saltire sable

Kissa Sveitarbot Gules, in fess three weasels rampant argent

Krystal von Kitzingen

Laertes McBride Vert, on a saltire Or five four-leaf clovers vert

Lughaid Cnuachd Dharaich mac Aonghuis Dhuibh; [Fieldless] A wing sinister displayed sable surmounted by a crescent gules upon a bezant

Luminaire Rouge, Canton de la Or, a lantern gules within a laurel wreath vert

Nesta de Vere

Poll Rotinn þvari Quarterly sable and gules, in chief a spear fracted per chevron and in base a spear contourny fracted per chevron inverted proper

Raymond the Iconoclast Quarterly Or and sable, in bend three hearts counterchanged

Sciath nic an Leagha Per pale gules and Or, a heart voided and a bordure counterchanged

Shannon ni Ó Caollaidhe Azure, an old English letter "S" argent surmounted by a sword inverted proper, and on a chief argent a catamount passant sable

Yorick of the Craigs


Caid, Kingdom of

Poll Rotinn þvari (New Name and Device)

Quarterly sable and gules, in chief a spear fracted per chevron and in base a spear contourny fracted per chevron inverted proper

Name:
The basic concept of this name appears acceptable, however, the specific grammar is not so clear. Crescent will consult with the submitter and his herald to assist; this requires more time than is available in the meeting.
Device:
First, the spears do not have adequate contrast with the field; this is reason for return. Additionally, the heads should not be grey, but instead white; this appears to be a problem with the emblazon rather than the design itself. Third, the spears would be better to be oriented the same, and stylistically we recommend increasing their number to three.

NAME WITHDRAWN BY SUBMITTER VIA CONSULTING HERALD
DEVICE RETURNED FOR COLOR ON COLOR


Altavia, Barony of

Laertes McBride (New Name and Device)

Vert, on a saltire Or five four-leaf clovers vert

Name:
Laertes was a character from Hamlet by Wm Shakespeare. McBride is found in [Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995) , pg 290] and dates to the 14th C. Note that the original middle name was dropped as per verbal instructions by phone from the submitter.
Device:
No conflicts found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Angels, Barony of

Cassandra Zoë Paganel (New name and device)

Azure, a silkie proper and in chief three flames Or each charged with a goute azure

Name:
Cassandra is found in [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) p. 59]. Zoë is found in [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) p. 296], dated to 300. Paganel [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) p. 237] from 1301, earliest derivation from Payne wich dates to 1249. [Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995) p. 335] under Pain, dated to 1086.
Device:
The silkie is essentially a "dark" charge as drawn and therefore must be placed on a a light background. Alternatively, the silkie could be made a metal rather than "proper".

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR COLOR ON COLOR


Calafia, Barony of

Alix de Beaumont (New device)

Per chevron inverted purpure and sable, between a chevron and a chevron inverted interlaced a comet argent

Name:
Registered by Laurel 4/96
Device:
Paid for by substituting the device submission for the previously returned badge.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Alonso Giovanni da Lavorno (New device)

Gules, a saw fesswise and a chief invected Or

Name:
Passed to Laurel 1/99

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Erwin Bloodridge (New Name and Device)

Per chevron argent and gules, two wolf's heads erased sable and a double-bitted axe bendwise sinister argent

Name:
Bloodridge is not documentable. Bloodaxe is a period alternative, but we could not justify any combination to support the submitted name.
Device:
No conflicts found.

NAME RETURNED FOR STYLE
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME

Kissa Sveitarbot (Kingdom Resub name and device)

Gules, in fess three weasels rampant argent

Name:

The word Kissa means Cat in Finnish, according to our dictionary Marlborough's Self-Taught Finnish, p. 14. It is not documented as a name, however. In Old Norse, Geirr Bassi shows examples of nick names derived from animals (or animal pet-names). Kissa is Finnish, and we have no proof of a name consisting of two nick names. While normally we would return this for further research, in this case we suspect strongly that the Drachenwaldish CoH will be able to shed more light on the subject, and so we are giving the submission the benefit of the doubt.

Sveitarbot is found in [Geirr Bassi Haraldsson; (1977) p. 28] as meaning Pride of the Clan or Life of the Party.

Device:
We note Edgar the unready 1/73, Gules, a mouse rampant argent. There was considerable discussion of whether or not a CD exists between a mouse and a weasel. While precedent is silent on the specific topic, Baron Bruce maintains that a mouse and an ermine were considered distinct in period. Our Rules require us (Rule X.4.e) to consider two charges different if period heralds considered them different. The ermine was considered a distinct charge, used as a badge by the Dukes of Brittany, and in art as an emblem of the Virgin Mary. The mouse was not used in these capacities; examples from period do not appear to have been interchangeable with ermines, our standard for granting no difference. Visually, the two beasts are distinct, with the ermine having a longer body, and the mouse having a larger head in proportion. Given that there is no specific SCA precedent requiring us to consider mice and ermines equivalent, we argue that there should be at least a CD between the two beasts. By analogy, there should likewise be a CD between a mouse and other ermine-like beasts, such as the otter, stoat, or (as in this case) weasel. Against Edgar the Unready, there is therefore a CD for number of charges, and a CD for type.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sciath nic an Leagha (New name and device)

Per pale gules and Or, a heart voided and a bordure counterchanged

Name:

Submitted as Sciath ni an Leagha. We have done the best we can with the nic/mac/ni issue. We belive this to be correctly lenited/aspirated, and anticipate that the college will correct any issues we may have missed.

Sciath, [Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981) p. 162].Mac an Leagha is found in [MacLysaght, E.; (1985) p. 192] under Lee. The patronymic marker nic is based on the discussion in Symposium Proceedings, March 1996, Talan Gwynek, p. 47, Vol II, "...The daughter of a Mac Aodha is a Ní Mhic Aodha, which is contracted to Nic Aodha." Analogously, the daughter of a mac an Leagha would become a nic an Leagha.

Device:

We cite Mary of Southwinds Castle, Oct '94, An Tir, Per pale Or and gules, a heart within a bordure counterchanged. This device is clear with a technical count of three CD's despite the visual similarity. We also cite Snaebjorn Haraldsson, Jun '92, Ansteorra, Per pale gules and Or, a Thors hammer within a bordure counterchanged. This is clear by RfS X.2.

We note that by precedent, LoAR 10/88, Allison MacCoul of Elphane, p. 19, for the arms of Eleanor Mabile, Sable, a cup Or within a heart voided argent and a bordure Or. Despite its simplictiy, the voided heart must be considered "thin line heraldry".. We feel this precedent should be voided (pun intended) because the heart is in fact a simple geometric charge that can be voided and drawn clearly without difficulty while retaining both its identity and the identity of the voided shape within it. Baron Bruce's rule regarding voiding and fimbriation, dated from the LoAR cover letter of 1/92, would permit hearts voided.

NAME (AS MODIFIED) AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Yorick of the Craigs (New Name)

Name:
Yorick is found in [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) , page 295], and was first used by Shakespeare. Craig is a Scottish and northern English spelling for crag from the [Oxford University, editor; (1971) page 593] dating to the 1500's. of the Craig is found in [Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995) page 114] under Craig and dates to 1335.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Darach, Shire of

Emrys Fitz Rainold de Venoix (Kingdom Resub Badge)

[Fieldless] Three winnowing fans Or

Name:
registered by Laurel in June 1997
Badge:
This badge violates RFS VII.5, that all elements on a fieldless badge must form a connected whole (i.e. must touch).

BADGE RETURNED FOR STYLE


Desert Star, College of

Desert Star, College of (New Name and device)

Sable, a sun Or eclipsed gules and on a chief argent three laurel wreaths azure

Name:
We note that on the LoAR, May 1998, p. 28, Outlands, Kingdom of, order name for Order of the Flower of the Desert. The name is being returned for non-period style. As stated in the return for the Order name of Desert Flower of the Outlands "...problem is that the OED has no example of this kind of attributive use of desert earlier than 1750. Without evidence for the period use of desert as a modifier meaning 'found in or associated with the desert' the name must be returned." This name is being returned for the same reason. The same reasoning would appear to apply to this name.
Device:
A quick check shows no conflicts or other problems; this will need to be rechecked with the name resubmission.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATIION
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF A NAME


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Gwendolyn of Amberwood: House Lantern's Keep (New Household Name and badge)

[Fieldless] On a cogwheel sable a lantern Or enflamed proper

Name:
The submitter's name was approved by Laurel August 1987. This household name is being returned for lack of evidence that it follows period name formation.
Badge:
This badge is approved and is being forwarded to Laurel as a personal badge to Gwendolyn.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION, BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Heatherwyne, Shire of

Judwiga Czarnpika z domu Piast ze Smokza Jamy (Laurel Resub Name change, New Device)

Gules, an eagle striking argent, on a chief Or two spears in saltire sable

Name:
The submitter's name is currently registered as Ludwiga Yagello ze Smocza Jamy. Her previous attempt to register a variant of this name was returned by Laurel for lack of documentation of Judwiga. Judwiga is the submitter's mundane middle name and a photocopy of her driver's licence is included. Czarnpika is a Polish epithet meaning black spear. z domu means of the house of, and Piast is a family name found in Hoffman, William F, "Polish Surnames", page 382-383. ze Smokza Jamy is the locative of Dragon's Cave, an actual Polish place-name (just SW of Wawel Castle) documented in the earlier version approved by Laurel Feb. 1996. See the submitter's map.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Krystal von Kitzingen (New name)

Name:

Submitted as Krystal Kitzingen. Submitter invokes the mundane name allowance for the given name. She provides her a driver's license in the name of Suzette Leah Krystal Steward. In support of this use is the example of a Scot from Black p. 151, under Crystal. This name, spelled with a number of variations has been documented in English. The use of Krystal as a middle name therefor appears to follow the use as a given name.

Kitzingen, [Seltzer, L. E.; (1952) p. 957] is a town in NW Bavaria chartered mid-13th C. We have no evidence of unmarked toponymics in German; when consulted the submitter gave specific permission to add the particle von to make this a documentable form. Normally this would not be of special note, but in this case the submitter does not allow changes; had she not given this specific permission the submission would have had to be returned.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Nordwache, Barony of

Gabbriella Mocenigo (Laurel Resub device)

Per chevron sable and argent, two winds respectant argent and a moon in her plenitude sable

Name:
Registered by Laurel 25 Nov, 1998

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Jamie Snawberd of Ross (resub kingdom device)

Argent, an ardvark rampant and on a chief embattled vert a hammer dulcimer Or

Name:
Registered by Laurel 4/98

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Nesta de Vere (New Name)

Name:
Nesta is found in [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) , page 226] dated to the 11th century. de Vere is documented in Foster "Dictionary of Heraldry", page 196 to the 13th Century. Vere is found in [Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995) , page 466], where several variants with de are shown, though not the submitter's particular spelling.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Southron Gaard, Barony of

Lughaid Cnuachd Dharaich mac Aonghuis Dhuibh (New/Resub kingdom? badge)

[Fieldless] A wing sinister displayed sable surmounted by a crescent gules upon a bezant

Name:
Registered by Laurel 6/92
Badge:
This has a charge (the crescent) on a charge (the bezant) on a charge (the wing), in violation of RfS VIII.1.c.ii.

BADGE RETURNED FOR VIOLATION OF RfS VIII.1.c.ii.


Starkhafn, Barony of


Luminaire Rouge, Canton de la (Starkhafn)

Luminaire Rouge, Canton de la (resub kingdom name and device)

Or, a lantern gules within a laurel wreath vert

Name:

The forms were not filled out to indicate the point of contact. A phone call to Roger Johnson, who appears to be the consulting herald indicates that he is also the point of contact; we have amended the forms accordingly.

A petition of support is included with the submission.

We note the example of Bouteilles-St. Sébastien, dated to 1099. Dauzat-Lieux, p. 107 who notes that the name Désigne une fabrique de bouteilles. i.e. the town is named after the product they manufacture. Cape Luminaire is located in Canada, undated, but probably late period since it is in French and on the Eastern Seaboard. [Seltzer, L. E.; (1952) p. 1096].

Thus it appears that this could be named after a place that makes red lanterns, or after a place that has a red lighthouse. While we are not confident that this justification is adequate, we are forwarding it for additional discussion in the College.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Raymond the Iconoclast (New name and device)

Quarterly Or and sable, in bend three hearts counterchanged

Name:

Raymond is found in [Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) p. 250], with no specific date.

The adjective iconoclast is found in the OED under the heading of Iconoclast, 1.A. meaning Breaker or destroyer of images; spec. (eccl. hist.) one who took part in or supported the movement in the 8th and 9th centuries, to put down the use of images or pictures in religious worship in the Christian churches of the East; hence applied analagously to those Protestants of the 16th and 17th Cs who countenanced a similar destruction of images in the churches. This meaning is dated to 1596. Hence, despite the relatively abstract nature of the epithet, there appears to be reasonable evidence that the description was applied to people in our period of study and hence should be acceptable.

Device:
Note to artist please feed the hearts a small amount.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Shannon ni Ó Caollaidhe (New name and device)

Azure, an old English letter "S" argent surmounted by a sword inverted proper, and on a chief argent a catamount passant sable

Name:

The submitter's documentation shows that this is a post-period name, and we have no evidence indicating that it was used as a personal name in period. It appears that the submitter could invoke the Mundane Name Allowance, but this requires evidence of the submitter's legal name (e.g. a driver's license).

Shannon is a clan name, derivative from Sean, and in an Anglicised form. If the submitter wishes this to be all in Gaelic, she should choose a proper Gaelic feminine name. Samthann (or Samhthann a later spelling that would be consistent with the spelling of the byname) pronounced something like "Shahv-hann". "St. Samthann was foundress and abbess of the monastery of Clobroney, near Granard. She died in 739 and her feast-day is 19 December." This name is found on p. 161 of Ó Corráin. There are a number of other lovely names for women in this book -- [James of the Lake would be quite happy to give you further options by email or snail-mail; He is in the CP under the Barony of Naevehjem.] The byname, if you wish to be the daughter of an Ó Caollaidhe (that is, her father's ancestor (or her grandfather) was named Calaidhe/Caollaighe -- an ancient Irish personal name according to Woulfe, p. 451), would be constructed "inghean uí Chaollaidhe". Adding the "h" after the initial "C" in Chaollaidhe (lenition) is re-quired of feminine name construction in gaelic. This changes the pronounciation of "Keeley" to something like "Cheeley". A plausible name in this pattern would be then "Samhthann inghean uí Chaollaidhe". (And this appears to be free of conflict based on a check using the online O&A.)

Should the submitter wish to use the form "Shannon," Laurel in her LoAR cover letter of February 28, 1999 has decided to overturn the precedent on mixed Gaelic/English orthography. Such mixtures will now be allowed.

Caollaidhe is found in [MacLysaght, E.; (1985) p. 171] under Keeley.

Device:

Overlaying the sword over the "s" renders the combination unidentifiable at any distance. Recommendations make either the sword or the letter Or. Also, make the sword larger.

Might conflict with Eric Lyon of St. Michael's Oct '85, Azure, a celtic cross and on a chief argent a lion statant azure.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE RETURNED FOR LACK OF IDENTIFIABILITY


Bibliography

Black, George F. (1946) The Surnames of Scotland Their Origin, Meaning, and History. New York The New York Public Library Ninth printing, 1989.

Dauzat, A. (1951) Dictionnaire Étymologique des noms de famille et des prénoms de France. Paris, France Larousse 1987 reprint.

MacLysaght, E. (1985) The Surnames of Ireland. Irish Academic Press, Dublin, sixth edition.

Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire (1981) Gaelic Personal Names. The Academy Press, Dublin.

Oxford University, editor (1971) The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press, Oxford.

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. (1995) A Dictionary of British Surnames. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third ed.

Seltzer, L. E., ed. (1952) The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Columbia University Press, Morningside Heights, NY.

(1987) Cassell's Latin & English Dictionary. New York Macmillan.

Talan Gwynek (1996) "On Feminine Patronymics in Gaelic" Caidan Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, AS XXX, Vol. II. pages 51-57. Upland, CA.Caidan College of Heralds.

Withycombe, E. G. (1977) The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford Oxford University Press Third.

Wright, F. A. (1984) Lempriére's Classical Dictionary. Routledge & Kegan Paul.


Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer