Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1998/min9811.php on line 9

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/subheader.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1998/min9811.php on line 9

Warning: include(/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc): failed to open stream: Permission denied in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1998/min9811.php on line 12

Warning: include(): Failed opening '/home/caidadmin/sca-caid.org/inc/left.inc' for inclusion (include_path='.:/usr/local/lib/php:/usr/local/php5/lib/pear') in /home/heraldsadmin/heralds.sca-caid.org/minutes/1998/min9811.php on line 12

Minutes of the 8 November 1998 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Apr 1999 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Discussion of request for comments on changing the ranking system, please give your ideas to Crescent by year's end.

Next month's meeting is the Christmas party; bring gifts for exchange if you want to participate, and your regalia for the group photgraph.

Submissions Considered

1. Edith of Arbroath Or, a triskelion sinister arrondi gules

2. Red Lórien of Oak River Gules, a sword inverted winged, blade on a bed of flames inverted, in chief three compass stars, all within an orle of oak leaves Or

3. Rúadhán Muirín Azure, a chief triangular sable, overall a double-bitted axe between three natural dolphins naiant argent

4. Adelwyn Atewattere

5. Brigid Findlater

6. Rosalia Della Luna

7. Isabetta Issoncourt

8. Jane Godwin; House Griffin of Lands End

9. Morgan the Fellwalker Per fess wavy sable and barry wavy argent and azure, a brunette mermaid erect to dexter proper, head and torso armored and maintaining a crossbow argent

10. Tara the Twin of Dartford Sable, an elephant's head cabossed, on a chief argent three keys palewise wards to chief sable

11. Lachlann Wick of Brindle Myre Argent, a bend sinister azure and in base a mermaid in her vanity proper tailed azure

12. Ceridwen Killian Sable, on a cross sable fimbriated Or between two dexter hands in dexter and two sinister hands in sinister a sun its splendor Or

13. Rowen Killian Sable, a griffin segreant, on a chief argent an eagle displayed between two crescents sable

14. Ulrike von Retelsdorf Purpure, on a fess argent two lioncels combattant sable

15. Melchior Erasmi von Frankfurt: [Fieldless] A cross crosslet fitchy sable

16. Canton du Luminaire Rouge Or, a lantern gules within a laurel wreath vert


Altavia, Barony of

1. Edith of Arbroath (New Primary Name and armory)

Or, a triskelion sinister arrondi gules

Name:

The submitter's current name, Edith of York was registered April 1997. The submitter has a previous alternate name, Edith of Warwick, which was registered in April 1992 and was retained as an alternate name when Edith of York was registered (note in the submission history for some reason the Caidan College noted that Edith of York was to be released, though on the submission form the submitter did NOT have an action. Fortunately, Laurel did retain the submitter's older name as an alternate). If this new submission is registered, the old name is to be retained as an alternate name.

Edith is found in (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977)), p. 93, under this spelling. It "remained common all through the Middle Ages and never died out entirely," though Withycombe does not give a period example (the closest is quoting Camden in 1605"'Ead drawn from Edith'"). On p. 93 of "Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" (by Talan Gwynek, (), found in Onomastics II), Edith is dated to as early as 1207.

Arbroath is (according to the submitter) an east coast town in Scotland. () notes (under this spelling on pg. 90) that it [h]as anc. abbey church and remains of abbey founded in 1178 by William the Lion.

Device:
The submitter's current device, Per pale gules and sable, a panther passant to sinister, on a chief argent three roundels sable (registered by Laurel, March 1995), is to be retained as a badge if and when the current submission is registered. This submission is in conflict with [Fieldless] A triskele gules (Kingdom of Trimaris, September 1995). We advise the submitter to consult with a good heraldic artist because her depiction of the triskelion arrondi is sufficiently different from that in the Pictorial Dictionary to provoke concern.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Angels, Barony of

2. Red Lórien of Oak River (New Name and device)

Gules, a sword inverted winged, blade on a bed of flames inverted, in chief three compass stars, all within an orle of oak leaves Or

Name:
We note that the submitter's driver's licence does not show the accent, but we believe this is because the State of California does not use accents on official documents of this type. Neither (Oxford University, editor; (1971)) nor () show Oak in this spelling until after 1600, but we believe that the modern spelling is appropriate.
Device:

This is a fairly decent modern depiction of a flamed object, except that flames normally extend upward. Since the flames are larger than the sword blade, and the sword blade appears to be completely surrounded by the flame, the blade is therefore sitting on a flame. The flames should normally be depicted extending upward. It would be better if the oak leaves were bigger and fewer.

This device was originally submitted with the compass stars overlying annulets, a form which is part way between the conventional depictions of a compass star and a compass rose. After discussing the issue with the submitter, the annulets were removed.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

3. Rúadhán Muirín (New Name and Device)

Azure, a chief triangular sable, overall a double-bitted axe between three natural dolphins naiant argent

Name:
This name is of the form "given, given", and are of mixed gender, and unmarked matronymics are not known in Gaelic. If the submitter wishes a simple correction, we might suggest Muirín inghean Rúadhain, Muirín daughter of Rúadhan, or Muirín Rúad, Muirín Redhead. As it stands we must return the name for improper construction.
Device:
This device has several problems. The chief needs to contrast with the field. The dolphins and axe cannot be "overall" of the chief.

NAME RETURNED FOR IMPROPER CONSTRUCTION
DEVICE RETURNED FOR COLOR ON COLOR


Boethius, College of

4. Adelwyn Atewattere (New Name)

Name:
Adelwyn is a construct from elements found in (), Adel_, pg. 3 and _wyn, pg. 523. Ate Wattere is found in () on page 67. We believe this submission is a reasonable spelling, following the variations under Attwell on the same page, where Ate Welle and Atewelle were in use concurrently, at the same time as Ate Wattere, roughly 1273 a.d.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

5. Brigid Findlater (New Name)

Name:

Brigid can be found undated under Bridget on pg. 54 of (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977)). According to Withycombe Bridget is "derived through the Old French Brigette, from latinized Brigitta, adapted from Old Irish Brigit, later Brigid" (please note last).

Findlater is found undated under this spelling on p. 168 of (Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995)). The submitter cites an earlier version of Reaney where Findlater appears on p. 119.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

6. Rosalia Della Luna (New Name)

Name:
Rosalia is found undated under this spelling on pp. 321-2 in (). The submitter cites An Annotated Index of Medival Women by Echols and Williams, which has on p. 379 (St.) Rosalia of Palermo, the patron saint of Palermo, who died in 1160. The submitter cites Dizionario Biografico Degli Italiani (produced by Instituto della Enciclopedia Italiani) for the surname on pg. 84 it lists one Niccoló Della Luna who was born in 1410.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Calafia, Barony of

7. Isabetta Issoncourt (Kingdom Resub Name)

Name:

Isabetta is dated to 1356 under this spelling on pg. 110 of "Italian Personal Names" by Rhian Lyth of Blackmoor Vale in () (found in Onomastics in the Caidan COH library).

Issoncourt found under this spelling with this precise spelling undated on pg. 363 of ().

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

8. Jane Godwin: House Griffin of Lands End (Kingdom Resub Name)

Household Name:
Griffin is documented in (Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M.; (1995)) pg. 292, to 1130. Lands End is a promontory in SW England (Cornwall) (Seltzer, L. E.; (1952)) pg. 1017.

HOUSEHOLD NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

9. Morgan the Fellwalker (Resub Device)

Per fess wavy sable and barry wavy argent and azure, a brunette mermaid erect to dexter proper, head and torso armored and maintaining a crossbow argent.

Device:
We consider this clear of (Tintureless) A merman, bow in dexter and arrow in sinister hand, tail raised to sinister, (SCA--Colin of Duntamknackan, August 1979) 1 CD for the field (Noting that there is a CD between a tinctureless badge and tinctured armory, just as there is between fieldless badges and fielded armory), and 1 CD for position of the primary (from affronty to 'erect to dexter'). We also consider the submission clear of Azure, a mermaid erect to dexter sustaining in her dexter hand a spear argent (SCA--Kriemhild Walther, February 1997) 1 CD for change in color of half of the primary, 1 CD for change in color of the field.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

10. Tara the Twin of Dartford (New Name and device)

Sable, an elephant's head cabossed, on a chief argent three keys palewise wards to chief sable

Name:
Tara is the anglicized spelling of Temair, from (Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981)), pg. 170. Dartford is found in (), pg. 139, founded in 1194. We note that Tara is indeed the twin of Kara the Twin of Kelton. We note that Tara has been deemed acceptable for SCA use by Bruce Draconarius Precedents pg. 91.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

11. Lachlann Wick of Brindle Myre (New Name and device)

Argent, a bend sinister azure and in base a mermaid in her vanity proper tailed azure

Name:
Lachlann is found in (), pg. 533 under MacLachlan. Wick is on pg. 814 ibid. Myre means bog or mire, (Oxford University, editor; (1971)), pg. 1807, under mire. The citation dates from 1330 to 1616. (Johnson, James; (1994)) pg. 170, cites Brindle from 1584, and Brindle Heath on the same page though undated. Based on these examplesm we believe that the combination Brindle Myre is a reasonable construction.
Device:
The fundamental problem with this emblazon is the depiction of the bend sinister, which has its dexter side too far up on the device so this must be redrawn with it in the proper orientation (roughly 45 degrees instead of the shallow angle presented here). Crescent notes that a bend sinister enhanced is a valid charged, but that it is different from the submitter's depiction. In addition, the black and white outline should not have the bend filled in but should instead merely outline it in black.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW


Gyldenholt, Barony of

12. Ceridwen Killian (New Name and device)

Sable, on a cross sable fimbriated Or between two dexter hands in dexter and two sinister hands in sinister a sun its splendor Or

Name:

Ceridwen is a Welsh name, found in (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977)), page 61.

Killian is an English surname from (), page 102, being the anglicized version of the the Irish patronymic Ó Cillin.

Device:
This device would appear much better if all of the hands went in the same direction, especially as that would agree much better with the Medieval sense of symmetry.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

13. Rowen Killian (Laurel Resub Device)

Sable, a griffin segreant, on a chief argent an eagle displayed between two crescents sable

Device:
The submitter's previous submission, Azure, on a bend between a bear and a griffin combattant Or, each maintaining a sword gules, three crescents palewise azure, was returned for conflict by Laurel on June 1998. The current submission is a complete redesign. It is in conflict with Sable, a griffin segreant, on a chief argent three fleurs-de-lys sable (SCA--Shire of Greifenthal, March 1998

DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Heatherwyne, Shire of

14. Ulrike von Retelsdorf (New Name and device)

Purpure, on a fess argent two lioncels combattant sable

Name:

According to the submitter Ulrike is the "feminine form of Ulrich." First Names of the Polish Commonwealth Origins & Meanings by Hoffman and Helon has on p. 333 Ulryka (note the 'y' and 'a') as a feminine form of Ulrich, the latter of which can be dated to 1488. Ulrika Eleonora (note the 'a'), the daughter of Frederick III of Denmark, was born in 1656 (as found on p. 1500 in()).

We could not find Retelsdorf. There is a town named Rettel found under Rettenbach on p. 392 of (). While there is a minor difference in the spelling, we consider the name Retelsdorf (Retels Village) plausible given the existence of a town of Rettel.

Device:
The submitter called the animals cats. The submission is in conflict with Purpure, on a fess argent three decrescents vert (SCA--Lochlain Mac Donnabháin, February 1994) there is only 1 CD for the cumulative changes to the tertiary charges.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Lyondemere, Barony of

15. Melchior Erasmi von Frankfurt (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A cross crosslet fitchy sable

Badge:
In conflict with Barry and per pale argent and vert, a cross crosslet fitchy sable (SCA--Aengus Stiubhard Mac Dhughaill, January 1996).

BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Luminaire Rouge, Canton de la (Starkhafn)

16. Luminaire Rouge, Canton du (New Name and device)

Or, a lantern gules within a laurel wreath vert

Name:
This name translates as Canton of the Red Lamp.(CRESCENT insert discussion on light and lantern in French). While Crescent is somewhat skeptical of the idea that "The Red Light District" is an appropriate name for an SCA group,
Device:

This device is clear of conflict, but is being returned for redraw and submission in the correct manner. There are two administrative problems with the submission which need to be corrected the number and type of armory forms and the color used to represent Or. Device submissions need, at the Kingdom level, three color copies of the submission from, and one copy where the emblazon is a black and white line drawing. 8.5 by 11 pages with copies of the emblazons are not an acceptable substitute. The color ORANGE was used for OR, and should be YELLOW instead. This appears to be an artifact of color photocopying or printing, but is still unacceptable.

Additionally, though less of a concern, the laurel wreath should be drawn slightly smaller so that it does not touch the top or bottom of the shield, as its current depiction has the appearance of being "throughout".

We believe this device is clear of Or a laurel wreath Or [Note: ?] by X.3 whereupon X.2 is applicable as the primary charge here is a lantern. It is also clear of Or, a candle gules between two flaunches embattled sable of Padruig Dubhchlogad by change of type and tincture of secondaries (wreath to flaunches).

Since this lantern is drawn approximately as depicted in the Pictorial Dictionary, we would like Laurel to perform a visual check that this is not affected by the precedent set by Da'ud "The lantern with its transparent 'glass' is not done in a period manner. As was noted in the commentary, the College has a long history of disallowing transparent objects." (LoAR 8/91, p. 22)

NAME RETURNED FOR CLARIFICATION, AND DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW


Return to the Minutes list
Return to the main Herald's page
Return to the Caid home page

Comments, suggestions or updates regarding this site should be sent to the .

Standard Disclaimer