Minutes of the 23 August 1998 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jan 1999 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

We're going to go ahead and start. Due to the volume of submissions, we'll need a long lunch break so the typists can catch up.

This is not the last meeting before crown. The meeting the 13th is the last meeting before crown. Submissions considered at that meeting and returned will be considered in submission for the purpose of fighting in Crown tourney. A new submission SHOULD be in Crescent's hands before the deadline for Crown tourney. They should be mailed to Crescent no later than 2 weeks before crown!!

Stuff mailed in is typed in before new items. However, Crescent doesn't particularly encourage people to mail in submissions. He doesn't discourage it either.

One of the typists asked up the question "Is combatant spelled with a double-t in the center?" and after searching through six standard references found only the one spelling with one t. We are therefore using the standard spelling in this document.

This is a reminder to local heralds - when something is returned at Kingdom level, you must (read, it is a requirement to!) notify the submitter in writing that it was returned.

Administrative notes the sodas are in the office. One can is for donations for the copier and the other is for the soda. Please make sure you have the right can before you drop money in.

We've been having problems with cleanup after drinks. Please remove the cans and clean up after you spill!! This is common courtesy, and shouldn't need to be mentioned. This is a formal entertaining area and needs to be kept clean. Clean up after yourself.

As a reminder the big green round can on the patio is for recyclable beverage containers. Please don't use it for trash.

Crescent's mother-in-law has moved in and is using the livingroom as office/living space. This will last for a few months. The piano is an antique - DO NOT PUT ANYTHING ON IT! Don't put anything on the desk/computer area either.

Upcoming meetings 13 Sept, 11 OCT (opposite The Japanese Tourney and Starkwars). We're having a problem with dates because Kingdom calendars are hard to come by. Apologies for the administrative problem.

Some of you are aware there has been extensive discussion on various electronic fora in regards to a badge for the Children's office. If you are interested in helping with the design, most of the people involved are not heralds, so if you have ideas of what would be a good badge, please contact Astreðr. It is for the Ministry of Children's office (society wide), possibly for children, possibly a second badge for that. Any assistance would be most welcome!

Collegium is coming, and we need an instructor for Norman Names. Laurel will be doing a road show (a subset of the Laurel meeting) and teaching a class for the general populace, as well as a class for heralds. We'll have lots of neat classes.

Potrero war, as always, needs criers.

The new set of Caid submission forms are in what is hoped is final draft. There is one form that still needs to be created (a group name form). Bowing to popular demand, there is no mini-emblazon. The other subjects being debated do we keep the lozenge? There will be a badge form and a device form. There may be a fieldless badge form (optional - opinions desired). There is a name form and there will be a group name form. These forms have to be finally approved by Laurel. No problem is anticipated. It is Crescent's intention to distribute copies of the final approved forms at the September meeting. They will be allowed for use immediately, and will be required for use at the January, 1999 meeting (for the February 1999 LoI). Items which have been pended to that meeting will need to be administratively rehosted to the new forms. There will not be a change in the number of forms which are required 3 color and 1 line of armory and 2 of name.

Due to the large volume of submissions, some returned items were not completely check for other possible reasons for return if there was reason to return them.

Submissions Considered

Angels, Barony of

1. Abd al-Rahman Abd al-Hakim Tumanbay al-Tomüki (New Name)

Name:

Returned for lack of documentation of use of two laqabs, one ism, and one nisba, i.e. epithet, epithet, given, locative. Da'ud was consulted by telephone in this discussion; Crescent recommends that the submitter consult directly with him or another Arabic name expert with regard to the overall pattern of the name.

The submitter has also apparently misinterpreted his documentation; the word Tumanbay in the cited name appears to be a (Turkish) title rather than an ism. The remaining elements of the name as individual elements appear to be acceptable.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION

2. Brandon Mac Frazer (New Name and Device)

Azure, on a bend argent a rose gules slipped and leaved vert

Name:

Brandon is not supportable as a period name, though we can document Brenden or the Latinized Brandanus, both found under Brénainn on page 34 (Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981) ). Frazer is found on page 72 (Bell, Robert; (1988) ). It is either a place name or an epithetical byname. As such it would not take the patronymic "mac" which demands a given name.

Device:

Because a rose is different from a rose branch we believe these arms are sufficiently different from Azure, goutty d'Or, on a bend argent a Glastonbury thorn twig blossoming proper of Mary Taran of Glastonbury. These arms are also clear of Azure on a bend argent and ivy vine throughout vert, in sinister chief a squirrel sejant to sinister erect argent of Robert of Spelsbury. Because a complete conflict check was accomplished, no decision was reached on whether or not this would pass. There are many close calls that we did not completely discuss, especially in mundane heraldry.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE PENDED DUE TO LACK OF NAME

3. Ciaran MacDarragh (resub kingdom)

Sable estencelly on the trunk of an oak tree eradicated argent a wolf couchant regardant sable

Badge:

This is the third try for this badge, it has previously been returned twice for redraw. We are still concerned with the basic design in terms of identifiability of the wolf. The submitter has done about as well as can be done, and the result appears acceptable; Crescent remains concerned that the design makes it very difficult to make the charge identificable, but is is passing the badge for comments by the College.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of

4. Barony of Calafia: Ordre du Coeur de Serpent (New name of order)

Name:

This is a French translation of The Order of the Serpent's Heart.

ORDER NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

5. Ruslan Kievskii (New Name and Device)

Per pale gules and azure, a python Or

Name:

The submitter is invoking the mundane name allowance for Ruslan and has enclosed a copy of his driver's licence. Kievskii is an adjectival toponymic meaning "of Kiev" and follows the formation discussed by (Paul Wickendon of Thanet; (1996)), page xxi.

Device:

This device is clear of Per saltire gules and sable, a pithon erect, wings displayed, Or Jonathan Hawkeper precedence of Bruce Draconarius [A dragon rampant contourny vs. a dragon statant erect to sinister, wings displayed] There's a CD for the posture of the wings (Dana Mac an Ghabhann, September, 1992, pg. 5).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

6. Brut von Ruppa (new name and device)

Paly gules and Or, two double-headed eagles and a Maltese cross sable

Name:

We can't find any documentation for the given name. The closest we can find is Brütt, but we can't prove that it is a given name. Documentation is needed for both the given and family name.

NAME RETURNED FOR DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME

7. Demetrio Giovanni Valentino (New Name and Device)

Purpure, a round shield Or surmounting a sword inverted all within a bordure

Name:

Demetrio is found on page 125 (De Felice, Emidio; (1986)). Giovanni is found on page 192 ibid. Valentino is found on page 348 ibid. under Valente

Device:

This device is clear of Purpure, a sun Or within a bordure argent belonging to Elizabeth Fairweather of Prior's Hardwick. A round shield is clear of a sun by Bruce Draconarius' precedence I grant a CD between a roundel engrailed and a sun. (Solveig Throndardottir, October, 1992, pg. 10).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Warrior's Vale, Stronghold of (Calafia)

8. Céibhionn Daugherty (new name and device)

Per pale vert and azure semé of daisies argent seeded Or

Name:

Céibhionn (Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981)) p. 48, under Céibhfhionn, second entry, undated. Daugherty (MacLysaght, E.; (1985)) MacLsaght, p. 75, as a variant of Doherty (page 84). This is the Anglicized spelling. The Gaelic spelling would be Dochartaigh. The submitter should be made aware of the fact that this name is pronounced Kev-un, and could cause confusion. Because we are unclear as to an appropriate anglicization of the given name, and the change for the family name is not minor, we are returning it to the submitter so she can decide what to do.

Device:

No conflict was found, but a complete check was not done. The is a problem with the layout of the semé is incorrect. Semé should normally be drawn with seven or more items; if drawn with six items, it is generally assumed to be six charges rather than a semé, and the items would need to be in a standard heraldic arrangement.

NAME RETURNED FOR CLARIFICATION
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW OF SEMÉ

9. Fergal MacCome (new name and device)

Per bend sinister azure and vert three bendlets Or between a wolf rampant argent and a trebuchet Or

Name:

Fergal (Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981) ) p. 97, dated to 722. MacCome (MacLysaght, E.; (1985) )MacLysaght p. 52. under Mac Comb(e), The name of a Scottish family now fairly numerous in north-east Ulster. MacCome is an old name in Co. Armagh.

Device:

The bendlets are not wide enough to be visible, and the line of division needs to originate from the upper corner of the shield and does not. Note to the artist please do not allow the green to bleed over into the gold.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

10. Victoria von Rohrbach (new name and device)

Or, a dragon's head caboshed vert between two peacock feathers proper conjoined in base by a ribbon gules

Name:

Submitted as Victoria Von'Rohrabach. There is significant lack of documentation for the given and family names. The family name was submitted as Von'Rohrabach, but was changed due to lack of documentability. The submitter's first name is Victoria, but she did not include any documentation to invoke the Mundane Name Allowance. We've asked for this documentation to be forwarded by the submitter. von Rhorbach appears acceptable, based on the existence of the town name Rohrbach in two places (Seltzer, L. E.; (1952)) p. 1596. one in Austria, one in the Saar. Neither example is dated, however. In German (where the name appears to be only found post-period), Viktoria is spelled with a k.

Device:

The design motif appears acceptable, but there is a strong visual conflict with the reserved charge of a Laurel wreath. The feathers need to be drawn with a more reasonably solid feather with the contrasting eyes. The ribbon should be drawn clearly securing the feathers (ie. tied).

NAME TENTATIVELY APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW OF THE FEATHERS

11. Victoria von Rohrbach (new badge)

[Fieldless] Two peacock feathers proper tied in base by a ribbon gules

Badge:

The peacock feathers need to be redrawn. Please make the feathers similar to those used for the device redraw.

BADGE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Dreiburgen, Barony of

12. Jacob Maximilian of the Black Forest (resub kingdom)

[Fieldless] On a winged card pique argent winged sable, a Maltese cross sable

Badge:

The tail on the card pique is an artistic variant apparently invented by the submitter. We recognize the fact that both the first "winged" and the first "sable" are technically unnecessary, they are included in the interests of clarity over conciseness.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dun Or, Barony of

13. Honour Grenehart (New Name (change) and New Badge)

[Fieldless] A hart lodged vert attired Or

Name:

This name, if approved, is to become the submitter's primary name. Her currently registered name, , is to be retained as an alternate name.

Honour is found page 155 (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977) ) under Honor. It was adopted after the Reformation as a christian name in England. Grenehart is a surname based upon a tavern sign name. Typical construction is found on page 166-169 of (Proceedings of the 1998 Known World Heraldic Symposium (1998)) in the article English Inn and Tavern Names of the Middle Ages by Colm Dubh. We cite as examples Blewbore, Whightehorse, Alicia Whitlambe and Whitharte

NAME AND BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

(Note: Listed as a shire in the original minutes)

14. Cormac Mac Seamuis (new device)

Or, a Greek helmet contourny vert and on a chief enarched sable five mullets of four points Or

Device:

The chief needs to be more enarched. The helmet and mullets need to be made stronger/cleaner. We did not check this for conflict.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW OF THE ENARCHING

Heatherwyne, Shire of

15. Cyrus Avenon (new name and device)

Sable, a crossbow Or surmounted by two swords in saltire inverted proper, a bordure argent

Name:

Cyrus (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977)) p. 77 under Cyrus (undated). The Greek Cyrus (Biblical Era) from the Persian and came back into use post-period. It is only known to have been used in English post- period. However, the fact that it was known within the Geography and Period of the Society means that it should be acceptable. Avenon (see inclosed, undated documentation) plus documentation showing Avignon being period in (Dauzat, A.; (1951)) p. 18. Also documented without the d'.

Device:

The border is unacceptably skinny. The crossbow should be drawn more identifiably. This device was not conflict checked.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

16. Dirk del Preste (Laurel Resub Device)

Argent, a rottweiler passant proper, on a chief azure a dirk palewise between two hearts argent

Device:

While it is not clear that the modern breed name Rottweileris period, we choose to use the modern name to aid the SCA artist. Mistress Ammalynne Starchild Haraldsdotteir's article "May I use a Collie in my arms" (Regin Bran HaraldssønnThe Meridian Heraldic SymposiumSCA (1982)) lists the Rottweiler a short-haired black dog marked with brown on the myzzle, over the eyes, along the chest and belly to just under the tail, and down all four legs to the paws from personal e-mail communication] as being a well-known European breed as long ago as 500 A.D. and is specifically associated with the city of Rottweil 1000 years ago. We are adding the term "palewise" because the default orientation of a long narrow object on a chief is "fesswise".

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Isles, Shire of

17. Ceara Ó Cellaig (Kingdom Resub Name, New Device)

Barry wavy azure and argent, two seahorses respectant Or

Name:

Submitted as Ceara O'Kelly. Cearais found under Cera on page 50 of (Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire; (1981) ). Since the name as submitted unacceptably combines English and Gaelic elements, the name O'Kelly was changed to the Gaelic form as permitted by the submitter. She would prefer the Anglicized spelling but accepts the Gaelic Ó Cellaig found on page 48.

Device:

This device conflicts with Azure, two seahorses respectant Or belonging to Goode, Durrant, and Murray, Ltdfound in (; (???) ); however we do not feel these arms should be protected. This device is technically clear of Barry wavy argent and azure, two seahorses respectant crossed in saltire vert (Elspeth Islay of Glen Meara), though there is a strong visual similarity, with one CD for change of the field and one for the change of the posture of the seahorses. Finally, this device is technically clear of Barry wavy argent and azure, two sea unicorns combatant within a bordure gules (Etta von Felsenstrand).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Nordwache, Barony of

18. Patrick of Mindrum (new name and device)

Per chevron vert and sable two six-petaled flowers and a wolf passant Or

Name:

The submitter documented Padraig, but put Patrick on the name line of the form. Patrick [Withycombe, p. 239]. Mindrin [Ekwall pg. 327]

Device:

The vert and sable might be color on color. [RFS 8.2]. There was much discussion of whether this falls under the "standard partitions in 2 pieces can be two colors". Heraldicaly, this is in conflict with the point of the rule of contrast. Dolphin cites the following submissions which passed in 1997 Móirin Chiardhubh ni Bhárdáin, Jan 1997, Per chevron sable and vert three spiral hunting horns reversed argent. Dietrich Schwelgengräber, Apr 1997, Per chevron ployé vert and sable three monkeys rampant Or. Crescent says "the current precedent is clear that this falls under 8.2.C, and therefor is allowable; this is confirmed by recent precedent. Crescent notes that this is a very good example of why not having good contrast between the parts of a field is a problem." The submitter blazoned the submission as daffodils, but the drawing does not appear to drawn the petals with a shape consistent with thta flower. The blazon was changed to reflect this.

NAME AND DEVICE (WITH DISCUSSION) APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

19. Roxanne de Audley (resub kingdom name and new device)

Quarterly sable and gules 3 dragonflys in pall heads to center and a border embattled argent

Name:

Submitter includes photocopy of her CA DL, showing her name is Roxanne. de Audley [Columbia Lippincott, p. 121] Audley is a town in North West Stafford, England, has a Church with a 14th C. tower. We also invoke the Grandfather clause as her mother's registered name is Portia de Audley.

Device:

This device replaces one that was pended last month.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

20. Jamie Snawberd of Ross (Kingdom Resub Device)

Argent, an ardvark rampant, on a chief embattled vert, a hammer dulcimer proper

Device:

Device returned for lack of contrast, per rule VIII.2.a.iii.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Southron Gaard, Barony of

21. Southron Gaard, Barony of: The Order of the Tour d'Or (new order name and badge)

Gules, a tower within a bordure embattled Or

Name:

"Tour d'Or" is already registered to Caid for use by the College of Heralds as the title for the Southern Gaard Baronial herald. Historical precadence exists for award orders and heralds to share the same title, eg the Order of the Garter and the Garter Herald in England. The Barony is happy to accept "L'Ordre de la Tour d'Or" (ie. all in French, or the correct grammatical version thereof) if the mix of English and French is unacceptable. Crescent is forwarding so that the name being used in two distinct instances can be registered in our Armorial. Crescent cites Barony of Sternfeld, The Order of the Golden Tower registered Feb '87. This is clear because of RFS V.1.A.

Badge:

Crescent cites Catherine of Arragon, Gules, a castle Or. He also cites Castile Gules, a castle triple-towered Or, which is protected.

ORDER NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL, BADGE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT WITH CASTILE

22. Barony of Southron Gaard (new badge)

Gules, a tower Or, in chief three mullets fesswise argent within a bordure Or

Badge:

This badge doesn't have an order name with it. It is a general badge.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

23. Etienne de Bracieux (new name and device)

Quarterly argent and sable a cross moline quarter-pierced, counterchanged

Name:

Etienne [Dauzat, Nomes de Famille, p. 241] under Etienne. Bracieux (Seltzer, L. E.; (1952) ) p. 258, a village in N. Central France on the Beuvron and has a 16th C. chateau.

Device:

Does this device exceed RFS 8.4.D (excessive counter changing)? Much discussion ensued. Crescent says it does not because it is a single charge of basically simple shape counterchanged in a standard way, the only possible oddity is the piercing, and that is a comparitively minor element of the design. Crescent notes Ursula of Kyleakin, Jun '96 [west], Quarterly argent and purpure, a cross moline counterchanged.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

24. Khalid al-Khadir (new name and device)

Sable, a breastplate and on a chief argent, in sinister canton a decrescent azure

Name:

Both names appear in "Arabic Naming Practices" by Da'ud ibn Auda, in Known World Heraldic Symposium 1, 1987, pages 46 and 50.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

25. Simon de Toulouse (New Name and Device)

Per pale azure and argent, a sword inverted and in base a snake glissant contourny guardant all counterchanged

Name:

Simon is found on page 271 (Withycombe, E. G.; (1977)), dated to 1197. Toulouse is found on page 1935 (Seltzer, L. E.; (1952)), a city populated in France since the 5th century.

Device:

Device is returned for lack of identifiability of the primary charge as per precedence of Baldwin of Erebor The College of Arms felt that counterchanging a skinny object along its long axis was poor style and had insufficient contrast [BoE, 31 Oct 84, p.21].

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
DEVICE RETURNED FOR FURTHER WORK

Starkhafn, Barony of

26. CalamStiùbhard (new device)

Gules, a death's head within a bordure argent

Device:

This conflicts with Titus Antony Archelaus, Jan '93, Gules, in pale a skull and a throne argent cushioned azure within a bordure argent, with one CD for the removal of the throne.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Wintermist, Shire of

27. William LeFendur (New Badge)

[Fieldless] A flame azure

Badge:

No conflict found.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Postmeeting

The chapter closed at approximately Vespers. These minutes were entered by Thomas Brownwell and Christopher Thomas, and merged by Crescent before being checked by James of the Lake and put into final form by Dolphin.

Bibliography

Bell, Robert (1988) The Book of Ulster Surnames. Belfast and St. Paul MN Blackstaff

Da'ud ibn Auda (199?) "Arabic Names and Naming Practices" Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings, Middle, AS XXVIII, June 25-26. pages 23 - 35.

(???) Combined Ordinary of Small Armorials. FTPW

Dauzat, A. (1951) Dictionnaire Étymologique des noms de famille et des prénoms de France. Paris, France Larousse 1987 reprint

De Felice, Emidio (1986) Dizionario dei nomi Italiani. Milan Arnoldo Mondadori

Geirr Bassi Haraldsson (1977) The Old Norse Name. Olney, MD Studia Marklandica

Johnson, James (1994) Place Name of England and Wales. London Bracken Books Apparently a reprint of the 1915 edition pub. by John Murray

Johnston, J. B. (1934) Place-Names of Scotland. London John Murray 3rd ed.

Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn (Heather Rose Jones) (1991) "Names and Naming Practices in the Merioneth Lay Subsidy Roll 1292-3" Knowne World Heraldic Symposium, Atlantia, A.S. XXVI. pages 75-120. JuneSCA-Free Trumpet Press West

MacLysaght, E. (1985) The Surnames of Ireland. Irish Academic Press, Dublin, sixth edition

Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire (1981) Gaelic Personal Names. The Academy Press, Dublin

Oxford University, editor (1971) The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press, Oxford

Reaney, P. H., and Wilson, R. M. (1995) A Dictionary of British Surnames. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third ed

Regin Bran HaraldssønnThe Meridian Heraldic Symposium SCA (1982)

Schimmel, Annemarie (1989) Islamic Names. Edinburgh Edinburgh University Press

Seltzer, L. E. (1952) The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. New York Columbia University Press

Seltzer, L. E., ed. (1952) The Columbia Lippincott Gazetteer of the World. Columbia University Press, Morningside Heights, NY

(1987) Cassell's Latin & English Dictionary. New York Macmillan

Talan Gwynek (1996) "On Feminine Patronymics in Gaelic" Caidan Heraldic and Scribal Symposium, AS XXX, Vol. II. pages 51-57. Upland, CA.Caidan College of Heralds

Paul Wickendon of Thanet (1996) Dictionary of Period Russian Names. Mountain View CA FTPW Second

(1943) Webster's Biographical Dictionary. Springfield, Mass. G. & C. Merriam Co. First Edition

Withycombe, E. G. (1977) The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford Oxford University Press Third

Wright, F. A. (1984) Lempriére's Classical Dictionary. Routledge & Kegan Paul

Proceedings of the 1998 Known World Heraldic Symposium (1998)

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