Minutes of the 28 June 1998 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Nov 1998 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The June chapter of the Caid College of Heralds took place on the 28th day of the second month of the reign of Ivan and Anastasiia, and was called to order at 1110 a.m.

Future chapter meetings will be 12 JUL, 23 AUG, and 13 SEP. KWHS was last weekend. It was quite successful. The next symposium will be in Uppsala, Sweden the 2nd weekend in June 1999. It should be very good, but could be expensive. (Start saving your pennies now, kiddies)

Local heralds are reminded that they are required to notify submitters in writing when their submissions (names and/or devices) are returned at Kingdom. Crescent recommends that they be given written notice of acceptances as well.

Aurum thanks everyone who heralded at Queen's Champion. She has begun a practice of rewarding heralds for their work on the field. Aurum noted that she had to remove a herald from a field at Queen's Champion because that herald disregarded her instructions and started giving the marshals flack. This is completely unacceptable at any level, but even more so at a Kingdom event. Aurum has copies of the new field rules available if you wish to review them. Should you believe you have been treated unfairly on the field, you can appeal to Crescent. Keep in mind, however, that he supports his officers, so you'd better have a darn good reason before you ask him to override.

Next Kingdom level event is Crown Tourney in Lyondemere.

Sodas are now kept in the office. Please keep the office door closed.

The large green trashcan on the patio is for recyclable cans, not trash.

The new "standard" forms have been approved by the BoD for implementation. We are in the process of customizing them for Caid. Drafts should be available next month. If you have specific issues with the draft forms as published by Laurel, please let Crescent know so he can incorporate them in the Caidan draft. He'd like to get the new forms in use and passed out as soon as possible because starting early in 1999, the old forms will not be accepted at Laurel. Crescent intends to include the mini-emblazon, but this is not cast in stone as yet.

Crescent does not publish the college roster because of privacy act information. If you need to contact a group herald, this information is in the regnum in the C.P. when the entire regnum is published (presuming it is accurate). When an officer changes in a group, please remember to notify the CP Regnum Editor.

Dolphin found a good book on Polish Surnames published by the Polish Genealogical Society. He has the order form. It's $25+ $3 s&h. He also found a store in Limerick that has Ó Corráin and Maguire in print. Borders can also order it for $13.

al-Sahid, Shire of

Aislinn ingen uí Caiside (resub name, kingdom pended device)

Per bend vert and argent, a harp reversed Or and a tree proper

Name:

Originally submitted as Aislynn nic Oghma More [3/98]. The submitter wants to specify the relationship of "the daughter of a man whose given name was Caiside of the clan mag Uidhir." She will accept minor changes as required to give the desired meaning. Resubmitted as Aislinn níc Caiside mag Uidhir [6/98]. Changed by Kingdom to Aislinn ingen uí Caiside since the second element is a clan name, not a given name. The submitter was present at the meeting, and these changes were made in consultation with her.

Aislinn [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 21], Caiside [MacLysaght Surnames ,p. 40] found under O'Cassidy. We have used the genitive Gaelic form given by MacLysaght.

Device:

Pended 3/98, at which time no armorial check was done. The tree may require redraw.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED (as changed) AND SENT TO LAUREL

Thomas the Potter (resub laurel badge)

[Fieldless] An amphora conjoined at base and top within a circlet argent

Name:

Registered by laurel 3/98

Badge:

The submitter has corrected the reason for return.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Altavia, Barony of

Altavia, Barony of: Order of the White Pearl (resub Caid/order name)

Name:

Altavis registered by Laurel in Apr. 1982.

[Order Name] The previous submission of Jan 1998, Order of the Argent Pearl, (for which the paperwork is not in the Altavian folder) was returned for non-period style ('argent' was not used in period "as an adjective referring to color" according to Laurel).

ORDER NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ceara ní Gallchobhair uí Cionaoith (new name and device)

Or, a dolphin vert finned and beaked and in base two bars wavy purpure

Name:

Submitted as Cera ni Gallchobhair ui Cionaoith. First name changed to reflect the time period of the rest of the name. Submitter, who was present during the discussion, would prefer original spelling if at all possible.

Ceara [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 50], Gallchobar Gallchobhar is found in Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 109; the genitive form, Gallchobhair, is found under (O)

Gallagher [MacLysaght - Surnames, p. 117]. Cionaoith is found under (O) Kenny [ibid. p. 176].

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AS CHANGED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gaston Yvain de Dinan (resub Caid/device)

Paly sable and argent, on a bend between two Maltese crosses Or, a wolf's head erased gules

Name:

Approved by Laurel (sometime after Aug. 1997)

Device:

His previous submission, Paly sable and argent, on a bend Or a wolf's head erased gules between two Maltese crosses sable, was returned by Laurel sometime after Aug. 1997.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Mathghamhain MacRaith (resub Caid/device)

Argent, a fret sable and a chief embattled gules

Name:

Approved and sent to Laurel by the Caidan College of Heralds, Apr. 1998.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Angels, Barony of

Ciaran MacDarragh (new badge)

Sable estencely, a tree argent the trunk charged with a wolf couchant regardant sable

Name:

Registered by laurel 9/90

Badge:

The wolf appears fimbriated, and there is an identifiability problem. Having the wolf be identifiable as a sable wolf depends on the trunk and roots of the tree being much larger than they would ordinarily have been. Rumor has it that the submitter wants to release the badge, Per fess, sable and gules a fess embattled, in chief 3 crescents Or. Written permission of this will be forthcoming. Conflict check appears clear.

RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Morgaine FitzStephen (resub Caid/household name and badge)

Household name: La Companie du Chateau Corbeau

Per bend sable and argent, a castle and a corbie contourney counterchanged

Name:

Laurel returned the previous submission, Chateau Corbeau, in Jan. 1998 for sounding too much like the Order of the Corbie (because chateau or order are not significant in these names).

Badge:

Clear of Per bend sable and argent, a plate and a raven close reguardant sable (SCA--Vladislav of Mag Mor, Sep. 1988) 1 CD for change in position of the bird, 1 CD for change of the plate to a castle.

HOUSEHOLD NAME AND BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Calafia, Barony of

Godfrey Baldwin Maul (new name, device and badge)

Vert, a fess vairy of one trait Or and sable between three dragons segreant guardant each maintaining a spear bendwise Or

Badge: [Fieldless] Two griffins combatant the dexter vert and the sinister Or sustaining a sword per pale Or and vert

Name:

Godfrey is found in [Withycombe, p. 136], Baldwin in [Withycombe, p.40], Maul in [Reaney, p. 303] as the first header spelling.

Device:

Please make the spears bigger. There was much discussion about a fess with a single row of vair. Showing a vairy of one trait appears to be allowed by precedent of Wilhelm von Schlüssel from Robert the Archer's Son [Ansteorra, 6/81]. [ Precedents III, p. 101,1983, Gross vairy of one trait.] One depiction from Foster's dictionary [Foster, p. 72] is Argent, a fess of one trait Or and gules between three water bougets sable. In his Feudal Coats of Arms there are several examples of ordinaries vairy of one trait. [p. 48, p. 62, p. 96, p. 118, p. 152].

Badge:

Returned for lack of contact between the charges on a fieldless badge. To fix the objection, move the griffins in slightly more and have them gripping the sword. This badge was not checked for conflict due to lack of time.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL; BADGE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Ír mac Lonngargáin (new name)

Name:

Submitted as Ir MacLonngarán. Ír is in [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 117].

MacLonnagargáin is in [ibid. p. 124] under Lonnagargán. Changed to correct spelling and put patronymic in genitive form as indicated by Ó Corráin in (modern) Ó Lonargáin.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Jane Godwin (new name, device, badge and household badge)

Device: Per bend sinister gules and vert, a pomegranate Or and a cross bottony argent

Badge: [Fieldless] Three pomegranates stems conjoined in pall Or

Household badge: [Fieldless] A griffin sejant with dexter forepaw raised paly vert and Or

Name:

Jane is in [Withycombe, p. 172] dated to 15th C.; Godwin is in [Reaney, p. 195] first header surname.

Device:

Submitter is advised to draw the charges larger.

NAME, DEVICE, BADGE AND HOUSEHOLD BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Johanna of Lincolnshire (new name and device)

Argent, a wolf's paw print sable within a bordure vert

Name:

Johanna is listed in ["Feminine Given Names in A Dictionary of English Surnames" by Talan Gwynek, p. 101] dated 1189; Lincolnshire is in [Eckwall, p. 298] under Lincoln.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Kean de Lacy (new name)

Name:

Kean is in [ Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 51] under Cian as the anglicized spelling of this name. The surname, de Lacy, is found in [Reaney, p. 269] as one of the header names, after Lacey.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Morgan the Defector (new name and device)

Per bend gules and barry wavy argent and azure, in sinister chief a sun Or

Name:

Morgan is "a favourite Welsh name from early times" according to Withycombe (pg. 222 under this spelling). Morgan and Morgan also notes that "[t]he name became Morgan in the med. period" (pg. 168 under this spelling).

Defector can be dated to 1660 in the OED, but the root words in this meaning appear in the late 16th century and thus Defector appears to be a plausible late period epithet.

Device:

Because the barry wavy field is color-metal neutral and thus does not force the sun from the center of the device, we have blazoned the sun as being in sinister chief.

This submission is not in conflict with Azure, a sun in glory Or (SCA - Wendryn Townsend, Jan. 1973) and Gules, a sun Or (SCA - Macedonia, important non-SCA heraldry) because in both cases there is a CD for the field, and a second CD for change of placement of the sun. It is also not in conflict with Per fess wavy gules and barry wavy argent and azure, in chief a sun in his splendour Or (SCA - Niall Muineachan, Sep. 1984) there is a CD for different line of partition, and a CD for the complex line of division of the field.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Rafaela Bianca Manciata (Administrative action: release of name and device)

Sable, a saltire of chain Or, overall a pair of wings conjoined in lure argent

Name:

registered by laurel 10/95

Device:

registered by laurel 10/95

FORWARDED TO LAUREL

Zhivana Anastasiia Svemirovna (kingdom resub name)

Name:

Zhivana is in [Wickenden, vol. 2., p. 281]; Annastasiia [Wickenden, vol. 2. p. 6]. Svemir is a masculine name in [Wickenden, vol. 2, p. 234]. The patronymic is constructed from Svemir with the suffix -ovna for the feminization using a method given by Wickenden.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Saint Ursula, Incipient College of (Calafia)

Edward Blosseville de Monreale (new name)

Name:

Submitted as Edward Blosseville du Monreale. Blosseville is found in [Dauzat & Rostaing, Noms de Lieux, p. 89] no date given. Monreale is in [Columbia Lippincott, p. 1230] stating that it "has a notable Norman cathedral (built 1174-89)." We changed du to de to correct the French. Edward [Withycombe, p. 94-95] dated to 1271, Edward the First.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Darach, Shire of

Andrés Miguel Rodriguez de la Rosa (new name and device)

Per pale purpure and vert, a winged rabbit rampant maintaining in its sinister paw a rapier argent

Name:

Andrés (dated to 1246 on pg. 119) and Miguel (dated to 1143 on pg. 132) can be found in "A Glossary of the Personal Names in Díez Melcón's Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses" by Talan Gwynek, KWHS, 1993. Rodriguez can be dated to 950 under Rodericus on pg. 188 in Díez Melcón's Apellidos Castellano-Leoneses; we have dropped the submitter's accent over the 'i.' De la Rosa is a reasonable epithet meaning 'of the rose.' The submitter apparently believes that the last is a locative, though the only possible place we can find is a town in Venezuela which probably is post-period.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Griffin Crosthwait (new device)

Vert crusilly argent

Name:

registered by Laurel 8/96

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Mons Draconis, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Mons Draconis, Incipient Canton Of (badge resub laurel)

[Fieldless] A dragon's tail couped vert barbed gules

Name:

Registered 6/97

Device:

The previous submission of [Fieldless] A Dragon's tail couped was returned for un-identifiability (Apr. 1998 LoAR) Submitter has included copies of the front-page to Das Concilium, dated 1413 and a page which shows a device from period [Bishop Johannes zü Wirczburg] on which is a charge which, in outline, has the same shape as the submitted charge. However there is no blazon or other description of what this charge might be. We have not found the charge in any of our resources.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Stiafen Tgetgel il Tessunz (new name)

Name:

The submitter contends that the elements of this name are Romansch Stiafen is a Romansch form of 'Steven;' Tgetgel can be translated to 'funny man' (according to Rhätisches Namenbuch, pg. 844, dated to circa 1600); il Tessunz is a regional Swiss variant of 'the Weaver' as translated by "Pledari Grond," which is Romansch translation software. We do not have a local Romansch expert, nor do we have any local documentation to confirm these translation.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION

Steinsee, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Martin de Thalassa (resub Laurel name; new device)

Gules, upon a pile wavy argent an owl contourney perched on a barrel sable

Name:

His previous submission, Martin de Théleme, was returned by Laurel in June 1995 because "the name does not 'follow the rules for name formation' in either the French or Greek linguistic tradition." Martin can be found under this spelling on pg. 420 of Dauzat's Noms de Famille et des Prenoms. Thalassa was an imaginary port which, according to Rabelais in his Gargantua and Pantagruel, was close to the real port of St. Malo (this last assertion can be found on pg. 110 of Rabelais by John Cowper Powys). In reply to Laurel's objection to names following French naming conventions, the submitter notes that while Thalassa appears to be derived from the Greek word for 'sea,' there are several examples of Greek town names used by the French with minimal or no modification. E.g., Thalamon can be found on pg. 567 in Dauzat's Noms de Famille et des Prenoms.

We note that Lempriére's Classical Dictionary has on pg. 617 Thalyssia, which were "Greek festivals celebrated by the people of the country in honour of Ceres, to whom the first-fruits were regularly offered."

Device:

We will advise the submitter (who was present) to draw the wavy more dramatically.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dun Or, Barony of

Kathryn Bearward of Wolfenden (new badge)

Per pale gules and vert, a sheaf of arrows Or

Name:

Registered by Laurel (sometime after Oct. 1994)

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Líadan of Seahaven (resub Caid name and device)

Azure, two bars wavy enhanced and in base a whelk argent

Name:

The Caidan College of Heralds returned her previous submission, Líadan D'Aci, in Aug. 1997 for combining Gaelic and Norman names. Líadan 'was the beloved of the poet Cuirithir and was a poetess herself' (among other historical precedence) as found under this spelling in [Ó Corráin & Macguire. pg. 122]

Seahaven can be constructed from 'sea-' and 'haven' (the latter can be dated to 1547 in the OED). A similarly constructed name, Seacroft, can be found under this spelling in [Johnson's Place Names of England and Wales pg. 434]

Device:

The device was pended at the Aug. 1997 Caidan College of Heralds meeting. This conflicts with Azure two bars wavy argent which is registered (according to Papworth, pg. 16) to "BROOKSBANK, DELAPOLE, HALSWELL, Halswell, co. Somerset. POLE or De la Pole, Kingston-upon-Hull. SEE" (the names in uppercase appear in Papworth as small caps). We feel these families are not important enough for the College to 'protect.' There is a Michael De La Pole, Earl of Suffolk (1330-1388) whose device is quite different, Azure, a fess between three leopards' faces or [sic], and is described on page 53 of Historical Heraldry of Britain (Sir Anthony Wagner, Oxford University Press, second impression, 1948).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Madog Maelgwn ap Llwelyn (resub Caid name; new household name)

Household name: House Sterling

Name:

The previous submission of Madog Maelgwn map Llewellyn Iorwerth of Gwynedd from March, 1998, was returned for pretension.

All of the elements of the name can be found on pg. 31 and the rules for construction can be found on pp. 29-30 of The Compleat Anachronist # 66 "A Welsh Miscellany" by Heather Rose Jones.

Household Name:

Joint submission with Rahel Anedd Dal Riata. Sterling can be dated to 1133 (under Starling on pg. 425, Reaney & Wilson). While Laurel has ruled (pg. 22, LoAR Feb. 1992) that [House <Place>] is allowed, we are uncertain whether this submission conflicts with Stirling Castle (which was widely known by the heralds present), so we await Laurel's ruling. We also note that Laurel had ruled as recently as Feb. 1998 that "[s]ince <House of Place> follows documented period forms, such as House of York or House of Capulet, we have returned this [House Belshire changed back to House of Belshire] to the originally submitted form" (pp.11-12, LoAR Feb. 1998, for Warmin of Belshire).

NAME AND HOUSEHOLD NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Heatherwyne, Shire of

Jeanne Marie Lacroix (new name and device)

Argent, a unicorn's head couped sable

Name:

Jeanne is found in [Dauzat - Noms de Famille et des Prenoms, p. 343] under Jean; Marie is found in [ibid, p. 416]. Lacroix in [ibid, p. 356].

Device:

Crescent notes Preston of Craigmilar [Campbell, The Scots Roll] Argent, three unicorn heads couped sable, but do not believe he is important enough to "protect."

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lyondemere, Barony of

Arthur FitzRobert of Wiverneweald (resub kingdom name, review of pended device)

Per bend azure and argent, a bear statant and a mullet of six points counterchanged

Name:

Crescent notes that in January 1998, we discussed Wiverneweald. Arthur is in [Withycombe, p. 32-33]; Robert in [ibid, p. 254]. Fitz meaning "son of".

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Naevehjem, Barony of

Seán na Dubh Mora (Laurel resub name)

Name:

Laurel returned his previous submission, Seán na Mora, in Apr. 1998 for "aural conflict with Seán Ó Móráin." Laurel registered the holding name Seán of Naevehjem at that time.

The addition of Dubh (meaning "dark" as found under the latter on pg. 169 of de Bhaldraithe's English-Irish dictionary). We would correct this to Seán na Mora Dubh (to correct the grammar), but because the submitter was specific on preserving the sound we must return it for the submitter's approval.

Device:

Note that his submission Argent, a dolphin haurient vert, on a bordure sable four escallops in cross Or, was registered by Laurel under the name Seán of Naevehjem in Apr. 1998.

NAME RETURNED FOR GRAMMAR.

Nordwache, Barony of

Gabbriella Mocenigo (new name and device)

Sable, on a pile nebuly argent a moon in her plentitude sable

Name:

Gabbriella is a Tuscan variant of Gabriele as found under the latter on pg. 179 of Nomi by De Felice. Moncenigo can be found on pg. 31 of Fucilla.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Wintermist, Shire of

Felix Selwyn (kingdom resub device, admin name spelling correction)

Quarterly gules and argent, a bagwyn sable

Name:

Registered as Felix Selwyln by Laurel 11/93. The original submission form has Felix Selwyn as the desired name. Laurel added the second L between the y and n. There is no commentary in the LoAR of 11/93 indicating a reason for the change, therefore we assume the change to be a typographical error. That this is just now being brought to Laurel's attention is due to the fact that submitter moved out of Kingdom and became inactive prior to 11/93. The submitter recently returned, and resubmitted his device and noted the strange spelling of his name. As per his original name submission, and re-checked by Dolphin, Selwyn is found on p. 265 of Withycombe.

Device:

Crescent notes the drawing on Page 150 in The Heraldic Imagination by Rodney Dennys, as a supporter of the arms of William, Earl of Arundel. Submitter drew the bagwyn as it appears in the Pic-Dic. Crescent notes Brión mag Fhloinn [7/97] Argent, a stag rampant sable. Citing Beast-Antelope "An antelope Vs. A deer" [Precedents of Bruce Draconarius, p. 11], Crescent feels that if there is a CD between an heraldic antelope and a stag, then there is a CD between a properly drawn antelope and a properly drawn bagwyn.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL ALONG WITH ADMINISTRATIVE CORRECTION ON NAME

Guinevere d'Avignon (kingdom resub device)

Purpure, chapé argent, a latin cross bottony argent

Name:

sent to Laurel 5/98

Device:

Potentially conflicts with Anne of the Golden City [Jan '74] Purpure, a cross flory within a bordure argent. Note to artist please draw the bottom leg of the cross longer. We think there is a CD between a latin cross bottony and an even armed cross flory.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Joseph Ducost (new name and device)

Azure, on a bend between two towers argent two Celtic crosses azure

Name:

Joseph (under this spelling on pg. 346) and Ducost (under Ducos+ on pg. 217) can be found in Dauzat's Noms de Famille et des Prenoms.

Device:

The submission is not in conflict with Azure, on a bend between two sea-horses argent, a sea-horse palewise azure (SCA - Anna Ilevna, Nov. 1984) a CD for change in secondary, a CD for change in type and number of tertiary. Crescent notes that the towers could be drawn better, though this is not enough for return.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Sabine of Shernbourne (new name and device)

Vert, a chevron between three goblets inverted Or

Name:

Sabine is dated to after the 12th Century according to Withycombe pg. 260 under Sabin[a]). While we could not find the exact spelling Shernbourne, we consider this to be a reasonable variant of Shernborne (undated under this spelling on pg. 417 of Ekwall) and Sherborne (dated to 1245 under this spelling on pg. 416 of Ekwall and undated under this spelling on pg. 440 of Johnson, Place Names of England and Wales).

Device:

We consider this clear of Vert, a chevron between a mullet of eight points, an Arabic oil lamp enflamed and a sword between two swords in chevron Or (SCA - Guy d'Aigles, May 1984) because of a CD for change in type of secondary and another for number of secondaries (we do not consider the sword group to be a single charge).

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

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