Minutes of the 3 May 1998 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Sep 1998 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

The chapter meeting of the Caidan College of Heralds took place on the 3rd day of the 5TH month of the gracious reign of Rørik and Karina, and was called to order at 1113 a.m. of the clock.

Your College of Heralds at work! Crescent, Moucheture, Dolphin and Silver Trumpet have been re researching this submission, and have found enough support (with help from Harpy) to forward it to Laurel. This will be added to the May Letter of intent.

Madawc

NOTE--STARKHAFN

Aoibheall an Sionnach (laurel resub name, new device)

Or, a fox sejant regardant sable between two branches palewise proper leaved vert

Name:

Original name submission Sionnach of the Highlands, returned by Laurel 11/97, because Sionnach is a byname, not a documented given name.

Aoibheall can be found undated in [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 15], under the heading Aíbell. A feminine name meaning 'radiance, spark, fire'. One of the old Irish goddesses, etc. 'Aíbell, daughter of the Ulster warrior Celtchar mac Uithechair'; 'Aíbell Grúadsolus (Aíbell of he bright cheeks) who is daughter of the king of Munster.' The entry is unclear as to whether the name was applied to living humans as well as fictional personas. The Caidan college appeals to the College of Arms for assistance with this name element.

an Sionnach (the Fox), according to the LoAR of 11/97 "According to MacLysaght, Sionnach is in fact a byname rather than a documented given name..."it is mainly found in Cos. Mayo and Galway and used there synonymously with Fox. An Sionnach (the Fox) was the epithetical designation of the chief of the Ó Cathernaigh sept." Even in modern Gaelic,Sionnach is the common word for fox (Mac & Mac, Gaelic Dictionary, p.301)." Tangwystyl has noted "...that this is one of extremely few occasions I've seen where a documented Gaelic byname incorporates the definite article."

Device:

There is no conflict (O and A through May 1997.)

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Announcements

Crescent discussed the most recent Laurel letter. Laurel will shortly be out of the country (so any desired contact should be made promptly) and as a result the June LoAR will be a bit late. The new forms are now available; Laurel asks for comments. A copy of the new form is in the April Letter; we will start accepting them (appropriately modified as permitted for our kingdom) when approved (probably about September), and we will start requiring them probably about January of next year (as Laurel will accept the new forms only in March). Do not submit on the sample forms!

Items that are found on the Laurel web page are accepted as documentation. That does not include items from links to other sites. If the web page is not affixed www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel, it is not automatically acceptable. This does not say that documentation from other sites is automatically unacceptable. The entire page(s) must be sent with the package submission), and information about the site itself needs to be submitted. This is logically equivalent to requiring copies of the title page and citation in context from books that are not from the select list designated by Laurel as not needing photocopies.

Use of an official branch name as part of a locative element has been considered by some commenters to be a weirdness in the name. Laurel has ruled explicitly that inclusion of a locative element indicating you are from an SCA branch as registered is not a weirdness.

The Laurel Ombudsman will be at the Known World Heraldic and Scribal Symposium in the Barony of Tir Ysgithr (Tucson, AZ) next month.

At the April board meeting it was required that each group have an exchequer. At this time, heralds are still required for all groups. It is being discussed whether heralds should not be required as officers for all groups. If any of you have a comment on this possibility, please copy the Laurel ombudsman on any letters you decide to write on this subject Margherita Alessia {mundane name and address removed from the web version}. (Please restrict your comments to this topic and only this one.)

We have a rules change letter considering two proposed changes to the RfS. One is a discussion of the basis for what we consider sufficient for a CD based on the change of type of a charge. There is a page worth of discussion on exactly what the underlying logic and its implementation should be. What Palimpsest is looking for with commentary on this is discussion of the general philosophical basis for the rule for deciding when you get a CD for change of type. Any inputs are requested by July.

The second topic is on the appearance of marshaling. Currently, a field divided per pale with no overlying charge(s) is allowed only if the line of division is complex. There has been (from time to time) commentary raised saying that, even with a complex line, this appears to give the appearance of marshaling. Palimpsest is requesting comment on whether the rules should be changed to include this. Question was raised concerning Quarterly. In addition to your comments on this rule, if you happen to run across examples of the period use of the basic style per pale, a complex line with an a and a b, please call it to Crescent's and Palimpsest's attention. Comment is requested by July.

If you are interested in heraldry at Pennsic, read the other letter enclosed with the LoAR (see Crescent for a copy).

There was much discussion about recognizability of unattached dragon's tails as Mons Draconis' badge was returned again. Crescent went through the other Acceptances and Returns for Caid.

Aurum has officially taken over Bellows' duties as of Crown Tourney. She would like to bring up some items. First off she was extremely impressed with the number of heralds who turned up and wanted to participate. She apologizes to those she didn't put on the field. She hopes this trend will continue. Remember Queen's Champion in June. In future she and Silver Trumpet will get together before Kingdom events to plan how they will arrange Herald's Point and the Consulting Table. She also reminds people that Herald's Point is her personal pavilion, please don't plan to live there. You are welcome to the water and Gatorade and throat lozenges. Please do not go through her ice chest(s) and baskets. Check-ins and Meetings will take place there. Consulting table is available as a home away from home, but you will be put to work. Pray leave room in front of the table for clients! Crescent wants to reinforce that heralds should set the example for the populace in courtesy. This was the first event that we used tabards instead of baldrics for field heralds in general. Comments at lunch, please. Also discussion on "at odds" problems between heralds and marshals. There was concern that a number of the marshals (Ladies of the Rose) were somewhat offended when the heralds would do the salutes and the heralds would say "my lords" when there were ladies on the field as well. They think that the litany is for everyone. (Discussion at lunch.)

The Fall Collegium Caidis schedule (October 3rd and 4th) is being set up. Teachers are needed for introductory classes like basic name and device and scriptorium. If you are at a point where you need to start exhibiting your talents, please teach (or you'll be approached!!). Panic situations are understood. Talk with Silver Trumpet and/or the Scribe Armarus. There are outlines available for the basic classes (for the most part). The site is not yet known (College of the Desert or Morepark College). The other useful or interesting thing about this Collegium is that the Laurel Queen of Arms will be present and teaching there. This should include a Laurel road show.

The following submissions were considered by the heralds assembled

Calafia, Barony of

Isabetta Issoncourt (new name)

Name:

Isabetta is a plausible construction from Elisabetta, under Isabella [de Felice, Nomi, p. 215]. Issoncourt is found in [Dauzat & Rostaing, Nomes de Lieux, p. 363]

NAME APROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Dreiburgen, Barony of

Etain Ciarleah of Cavan (new name)

Name:

The submitted name appears to be mixed anglicized Gaelic and Gaelic, which is not a registerable construction. In particular, we can not determine what the submitter is intending with the second element of the name. Etain is in [Withycombe, p. 107]; and we note that Étaín is found as the earlier spelling in [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 90.] The byname (?) Ciarleah can not be documented by the CoH, but appears to be an attempt at a Gaelic spelling. The locative, Cavan, An Cabhán, 'the hollow', is found on p. 36 of Adrian Room's A Dictionary of Irish Place-Names.

RETURNED FOR CLARIFICATION AND CONSISTENT NAME CONSTRUCTION

Gallavally, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Brénainn de la Haya of Slaine (new name and device)

Per pale sable and argent, in fess an increscent a roundel and a decrescent counterchanged, on a chief gules three triskelions argent

Name:

Haya is in [Black, p. 350,] under Hay. Bréanainn is the earlier spelling in [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 34]. This name would be returned for mixing Gaelic and English (Anglo-Norman) orthography. It is further felt to be presumptuous for asserting membership in the family of de la Hay, constable of Scotland. We note also that, at least at this point, we can not document the spelling de la Haya in Scotland, although we can document Haya and de la Haye. In any case, this name is in conflict with Brendan Hay (Dec '92, Atlantia).

Device:

Returned for redraw; space is needed between the crescents and roundel. Crescent cites Anas ibn Haroun'abd al-Zaki Per pale sable and argent, in fess an increscent, a roundel and a decrescent within a bordure embattled counterchanged [July, '95]. No conflict found at this time. *Dolphin notes that in preparation of the Minutes and LoI, he came across this precedent "It might also be noted that charges oriented in different directions were normally treated as different charges. For example, crescents, increscents, decrescents, and crescents pendant will not be found together in period style armory. [On a chief a plate between a decrescent and an increscent] "The three tertiaries are thematically unified, but the 'phases of the moon' are not really period style." (Alisoun MacCoul of Elphane, LoAR 27 August 1989, p. 22) [p141-precedents] and that this may be cause for return.*

NAME RETURNED FOR CONFLICT
DEVICE FOR REDRAW

Dun Or, Barony of

Charles O' Malley (new name)

Name:

Charles is dated to 1273 on (pp. 62-3 of Withycombe). O' Malley is the anglicized form of Ó Malley and can be dated to the 1500s on (p. 206 of Surnames of Ireland by Maclysaght). It should be stated that Maclysaght (pp. 219-20 of Irish Families) notes that there is a fictional character, Charles O' Malley, in works by Lever. We consider this submission clear of this character.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Gyldenholt, Barony of

Cassandra of Warwick (new name and device)

Or, a saltire purpure between four roses gules

Name:

Cassandra can be dated to 1207 under this spelling on [pp. 59-60, Withycombe.] Warwick can be dated to 915 under this header on [pg. 496 of Johnston, Place Names of England and Wales,] though this precise spelling is not given a date in the entry.

Device:

We consider this clear of Or, a saltire purpure between in pale two garden rosebuds gules, slipped and leaved vert, and in fess two wolf's heads erased respectant sable (SCA-Adria of the Crosswinds, March 1994) with one CD for change in type of half of the secondaries, another CD for change in tincture of half of the secondaries. We will advise the submitter to draw the roses larger.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ghislaine d' Auxerre (new badge)

[Fieldless] A spur fesswise Or

Name:

Registered by Laurel 4/92

Badge:

The explicit blazon of fesswise is due to conflict between default position for mundane and SCA heraldry. If this badge is approved, Ghislaine would like to release her badge [Fieldless] A cross potent engrailed Or. Crescent cites Sigrurd Ericsson of Bergen Sable, a spur fesswise argent [4/92, Atlantia].

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Labhriunn MacIain Gleann na Guineach (new name and device)

Gyronny argent and sable, a dolphin haurient within an orle gules

Name:

Submitted as Labhriunn MacIan na Gleann na Guineach. Labhruinn. Gaelic larune for Lawrence is found in [Clans & Tartans of Scotland by Bain, p. 300]. For MacIan, Gaelic MacIain, son of John we cite [Black, p. 510]. Gleann na Guineach [The Clan Gunn and its Country pub. by the Clan Gunn Heritage Center.] The submitter has provided evidence of the common place name (in Gaelic) of Gleann na Guineach. Crescent notes the instance of the return of Aeschine nic Leoid na Ceann Loch na Dallach [LoAR 4/97, p. 15], for use of the double preposition. We have dropped the preposition (the first na) due to Laurel's assertion that it is not used in this grammatical formation. We have no information on complex locatives, so give this submission the benefit of the doubt.

NAME APPROVED AS MODIFIED, AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Lyondemere, Barony of

Arthur FitzRobert (new name and device)

Per bend azure and argent, a bear statant and a mullet of six points counterchanged

Name:

Conflicts with Arthur fitz Robert (SCA, Feb. 1995).

Device:

No conflicts found. Pended until the submission of a name.

NAME RETURNED FOR CONFLICT; DEVICE PENDED

Southron Gaard, Barony of

Chrétienne de Haverington (new name and device)

Azure, a quill pen palewise argent interlaced in a Harrington knot couped Or

Name:

Chrétienne is feminine form of Chrétien found under the latter [pg. 130 of Noms et Prénoms of Dauzat.] de Haverington can be dated to 1308 as found under Haverington, Sir John de, on [pg. 109 of the Dictionary of Heraldry Feudal Coats of Arms and Pedigrees by Joseph Foster].

Device:

The submission conflicts with Azure, fretty Or, a hare salient argent (Eadric Hararand, Apr '89, Caid) because there is no difference given between a fretty field and a fret couped-(-LoAR Feb. 1991, pg. 21). There is one CD given between the hare and the quill pen, but no other.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL; DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Starkhafn, Barony of

Aoibheall an Sionnach (laurel resub name, new device)

Or, a fox sejant regardant sable between two branches palewise proper leaved vert

Name:

Original name submission Sionnach of the Highlands, returned by Laurel 11/97, because Sionnach is a byname, not a documented given name. Aoibheall can be found in [Ó Corráin & Maguire, p. 15], under the heading Aíbell. A feminine name meaning 'radiance, spark, fire'. One of the old Irish goddesses, etc. Aíbell, daughter of the Ulster warrior Celtchar mac Uithechair; Aíbell Grúadsolus (Aíbell of he bright cheeks) who is daughter of the king of Munster. "The name always retained its pagan associations." We find this name element to be unacceptable as it presumes the submitter to be an Irish goddess, or related to mythological persons. an Sionnach (the Fox), according to the LoAr of 11/97 "According to MacLysaght, Sionnach is in fact a byname rather than a documented given name..."it is mainly found on [sic] Cos. Mayo and Galway and used there synonymously with Fox. An Sionnach (the Fox) was the epithetical designation of the chief of the Ó Cathernaigh sept." Even in modern Gaelic, Sionnach is the common word for fox (Mac & Mac, Gaelic Dictionary, p.301)."

Device:

There is no conflict (O and A through May 1997.)

NAME RETURNED FOR PRESUMPTION; DEVICE PENDED

Conall MacSeaghain (new device)

Or, a chair, back to dexter, and a bordure embattled vert

Name:

Approved and sent to Laurel by the Caidan College of Heralds, Jan. 1998.

Device:

There is a previous submission with a chair drawn in a similar manner (Argent, a bend sinister between a chair, back to sinister, and a roundel azure, Thomas of the Isles, March 1994). We will advise the submitter draw the chair with some additional identifying features and to expand the bordure.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Wintermist, Shire of

Acrisius Sospes (kingdom resub name and device)

Argent, on a fess between two lightning bolts fesswise gules a compass star argent

Name:

Acrisius Sosius was returned for clarification 4/98. Acrisius is found in [Lampierre, p. 7]. Sospes [Cassells Compact Latin Dictionary, fifth printing 1984, p. 210] appears to be a correctly formed cognomen for "the lucky".

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Guinevere d'Avignon (new name and device)

Purpure, a Latin cross bottony between three points argent

Name:

Guinevere is an undated alternate spelling of Guenevere as found under the latter on [pp. 140-1 of Withycombe.] d'Avignon is a locative form of Avignon as found under the latter on [pg. 42 of Noms de Lieux by Dauzat & Rostaing.]

Device:

The use of three points is disallowed because "the dexter and sinister points are described as abatements of honor, to be used separately, and not in conjunction (Da'ud ibn Auda, LoAR April 1992, p. 19)" (cited by Jaella of Armida, LoAR March 1998, pg. 23).

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL; DEVICE RETURNED FOR STYLE

Postmeeting

Aside from the putting away of books, this chapter ended at 3:30 PM. These minutes were typed by Trident and Golden Rose, then massaged by Moucheture prior to final mangling by Dolphin.

Bibliography

Bain, R. (1978). The Clans and Tartans of Scotland. Collins, Glasgow, third reprint.

Black, G. F. (1946). The Surnames of Scotland Their Origin, Meaning and History. New York Public Library, New York. 1989 reprint edition.

Dauzat, A. (1987). Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Famille et des Prénoms de France. Larousse, Paris. Reviewed and augmented by Marie-Thérèse Morlet.

Dauzat, A. and Ch. Rostaing. Dictionnaire Étymologique des Noms de Lieux en France. Guénégaud, Paris, 2nd ed.

De Felice, E. (1986). Dizionario dei Nomi Italiani. Arnoldo Mondadori Editore S.p.A, Milan.

Foster, J. (1989). The Dictionary of Heraldry Feudal Coats of Arms and Pedigrees. Bracken Books, London.

Johnston, J. B. (1915). The Place-Names of England and Wales. John Murray, London.

Johnston, J. B. (1934). Place-Names of Scotland. John Murray, London, 3rd ed.

MacLysaght, E. (1957). Irish Families Their Names, Arms and Origins. Hodgis Figgis & Co., Dublin.

MacLysaght, E. (1985). The Surnames of Ireland. Irish Academic Press, Dublin, sixth edition.

Ó Corráin, D. and F. Maguire (1990). Irish Names. The Lilliput Press, Dublin.

Room, A. (1994). A Dictionary of Irish Place-Names. Appletree Press, Belfast, revised edition.

Simpson, D.P. ed. (1987). Cassell's Latin & English Dictionary. Macmillan, New York.

Withycombe, E. G. (1997). The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names. Oxford University Press, Oxford, third edition. Reprinted 1982.

Woulfe, P. (1967). Sloinnte Gaedeal ir Gall Irish Names and Surnames. Genealogical Publishing Company, Baltimore, Maryland.

Wright, F. A. (1984). Lempriére's Classical Dictionary. Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 3rd. ed.

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