Minutes of the 15 March 1998 Meeting
[Note: These submissions appear on the Jul 1998 LoAR]
Notes and Announcements
Due to an "unrecoverable error" this is not the final form of the
March minutes. Herewith is the data as entered during the meeting.
Hi to the new attendees. Lots of people here, so lets try to be quiet. Books
and folders in the lost in found for over 6 months are about to be declared
abandoned.
This is not the last meeting before Crown. The next meeting Is. Returned
submissions from today are not considered in submission for crown! Make sure
they resubmit next month. Branch heralds having submissions are not considered
"in submission," they must be in Crescent's hands. Note that this is
the April meeting...
Thanks to all who attended and did classes at Collegium. Ghislane thanks
everyone who came out and helped at the Great Western Bog. 'Specially Darah and
the others who hauled the books. Incredible thanks to Miguelle for loaning his
computer and to Njal who helped with crying during the confusion.
Madawc reminded us that our Current Majesty is still in submission. She spoke
with a herald at a consulting table at Great Western Flood. Who was it [he?]?
Further detail unknown. She wants to get this solved before She steps down.
If Her Majesty consults with you about a name. PLEASE consult with her, then
let the college know what is going on.
General reminder/statement that it is desirable but not required that you
notify a submitter in writing that their name passed at Kingdom. It is required
that you notify a submitter in writing that you notify a submitter if their
name is returned by Kingdom. E-mail is not considered writing.
A general statement has been raised about what a "Vicar/Vicaress"
or "Reeve/Reevess" are. It is not obvious that the terms are always
used consistently, conflicting documentation exists. The current belief is that
a Vicar/ess are appointed to act for a Baron/ess during a time that they can't
or won't fulfill the duties of their office. A Reeve/ss are often appointed
with the intent of giving them a time to learn and take over as the new
Baron/ess. Corpora and Kingdom law does not cover them, so what authority they
have is up to debate. Gyldenholt created the title of Reeve/ss (using a very
different meaning than in period).
Suggestion from Hrorick is that Reeve/ss be designated in Kingdom Law as
successors, and Vicar/ess be designated as regents. This is up to the Kingdom
Seneschal. Crescent has his qualms. He would like to see some research and
discussion at the Kingdom level.
Eirikr commented on the Order of Precedence and Grand Marches. First, for a
couple (Lord and Lady), the one with the highest rank determines the couple's
placement. Second, a household's place is determined by the rank of the head of
household, not the rank of the highest member. Third, anyone may choose to
participate in a March at a position lower than their highest rank allows, i.e.
as if their higher rank were erased and they were placed into the March based
upon their lower ranking award.
Golden Rose Herald invites volunteers to be "drop dead deputy" for
the Order of Precedents.
al-Sahid, Shire of
Aislynn nic Oghma More (new name and device)
Per bend vert and argent, a harp reversed Or and a tree vert trunked
sable
- Name:
- Aislynn appears to be a misspelling of Aislinn (O'Corrain &
Maguire,pg. 21). The name as submitted is unacceptable because either 1) it
mixes names of Gaelic and English orthography, or 2) if we change More to
Mor, this would make Aislynn the descendent of the Great Oghma, a mythical
chieftain of the Faery folk in Irish literature.
- Device:
- Discussion of device pended until name resubmitted. No armorial check was
done.
NAME RETURNED FOR CONSTRUCTION
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME
Arabella Devon (new name)
- Name:
- Arabella (Withycombe, pg. 29) is Scottish, dated to 1255 in this spelling.
Devon (Reaney & Wilson paper 3rd, pg. 133) is dated to 1275, and
indicates from Devon. As a toponymic, Devon (in various spellings can be
dated to 894.
NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Trifona Anastasiia Dodovicha (Laurel Resub name)
- Name:
Trifona [Wickenden, p. 245] derived from Trifon the addition of the
"a" being the feminine form. [p. XVIII example is cited].
Anastasiia [p. 6] dated to 1225 under the given name. Dodovica [ p. 51] is a
feminine patronymic derived from Dod.
In the 6/97 LOaR, Laurel ruled that Double Christian Names in Russian,
while considered a weirdness, is not currently banned.
NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Angels, Barony of
Amalric von Regensburg (Laurel Device Resub - Meridies)
Azure, a lion rampant regardant maintaining in its sinister forepaw a
sword inverted Or, on a chief indented argent three crosses formy recerclee
sable
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel 1/92 via Meridies
- Device:
- Previous device was submitted as Chevronelly azure and argent, a lion
rampant reguardant maintaining in its dexter forepaw a sword inverted,
Or. [via Meridies]. It was returned by Laurel (12/88) for conflict with
the arms of William MacQueen of MacQueen, Per bend argent and azure, a
mountain lion rampant proper. There was a CD for the field but nothing
for the difference between a mountain lion and a regular lion, and nothing
for the maintained charge. The submitter included documentation showing
moline crosses with bent arms and no indent. Sérgio Luís de
Carvalho, in Iniciação à Heráldica Portuguesa [p.
56] shows Cruz do Templo which are quite similar. Crescent notes that while
crosses formy recerclee does not exactly describe this charge, the submitter
has provided documentation showing this form of cross used in period heraldry
in the form of photocopies from a woodcut by Hans Burgkamir in The Triumph of
Maximillian I.
(action not given; presumably forwarded to Laurel as it was registered
07/98)
Anneyse of Caernarvonshire (Device Change)
Vert, two quill pens in saltier argent , a chief indented
ermined
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel (via Meridies) 3/91
- Device:
- Submitter requests that her old device, Purpure, on a chevron between
three decrescents argent, a reremouse sable [3/91, Meridies], be
released if this device passes. Note to the artist, please make the
indentations slightly stronger.
DEVICE PASSED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Christyana Angelique Beltran (kingdom name resub)
- Name:
- From the minutes of Caid CoH meeting 8/97, "We note that this is the
daughter of Selwynn Beltran (see below). We note that the same consideration
for her mother's use of Beltran be used here. (Dauzat, p 36) shows Beltram
and the variant spelling Beltrand. Given these two spellings, Beltran appears
to be a plausible spelling. Christyana is a plausible feminine variant of
Kristyan found on (Withycombe, p 65) under the heading Christian(a)."
Withycombe [p. 24] under Angelica, "Angelique is not uncommon in
France."
NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Canyons, Canton of (Angels)
Cardhla Liadan O'Neill (new name)
- Name:
- The pattern "given given clanname" is not a documentable naming
practice in Irish.
RETURNED FOR GIVEN GIVEN CLAN NAME IN IRISH
Calafia, Barony of
Alix de Beaumont (kingdom badge resub)
[Fieldless] On a rose purpure barbed vert a rose argent seeded proper and
unbarbed
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel 4/96
- Badge:
- Crescent would like to mention The town of Sutton-Colefuld, A double
heraldic rose circumscribed "Sigill gardiani et societatis de
Sutton-Colefuld." The common seal of the town of Sutton-Colefuld.
[Papworth, p. 859]. Crescent also cites Orianna Valentain Corbizzi
[Fieldless] A six petalled rose purpure barbed charged with a snowflake
Or. [Jan. 91]. Returned citing Da'ud's ruling [Sep, 90] returning
Elizabeth Scott of Berwick and Jonas Aquilian (joint badge) due to a visual
conflict with the Tudor Rose. A double rose argent and gules. He
states that "While there is just enough technical difference, with one
CVD for fieldlessness and another for changing half of the tincture of the
combined charge, the overwhelming visual similarity to this very famous badge
is just too much."
BADGE RETURNED FOR CITED RULING
Bjorn of the Woode Pyle (Laurel Name Appeal)
- Name:
- Registered as Bjorn Pile of the Wode 12/97. Submitter attaches a petition
from the Compact OED. Pg. 263; 1552 HULEOT "Woode Pyle, strucs. and
the" History of Surnames in the British Isles Ewen p. 176, 178. A
Dictionary of English Surnames, p. 351, p 500, p 501.
APPEAL APPROVED AND SEND TO LAUREL WITH MILD COLLEGE SUPPORT
Brighid nic Muirenn (new name and device)
Quarterly azure and vert, a barn owl argent
- Name:
- Brighid (O'Corrain & Maguire, pg. 36) is found under Brigid. Nic needs
to change to ingen. Muirenn (O'Corrain & Maguire, pg. 141).
Unfortunately, this name conflicts with Brigid Morin, registered by Laurel
Jan. 90.
- Device:
- This device conflicts with Sable, an owl argent (James
MacChluarain, Jan '73).
NAME AND DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT
Madeleine de la Chatte Enfumeé (kingdom device resub)
Per pale gules and vert a natural tiger rampant Or marked sable, a
bordure company counter-company Or and sable
- Name:
- Sent to Laurel 9/97
DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Richenda Elizabeth Coffin (new badge)
[Fieldless] A daffodil slipped and leaved Or
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel 6/96
- Badge:
- We cite Christine the Acursed, Azure, a chrysanthemum slipped and
leaved Or. [6/73]. We believe there is a CD between a Chrysanthemum
slipped and Leaved and a Daffodil Slipped and Leaved, as a Chrysanthemum is
usually shown afronty which produces a many-petaled-flower (like a rose)
presentation, where as a daffodil is bell-shaped. We also cite The Order of
the Gilded Lilly for the Barony of Wintersgate [11/82] Sable, a lilly
blossom Or. But we believe there is a CD for slipped and leaved versus
just a blossom.
BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Séadna of Kyncaide (Kingdom Resub name)
- Name:
- Séadna [O' Corrain and Maguire, p 165]. Withycombe claims that this
name is the Irish cognate of Jane. Kyncaide [ Black, p. 399] under Kincaid,
dated to 1550.
NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Zhivana Anastasiia Samirovna (new name)
- Name:
- Zhivana [Wickenden, p. 281]. Anastasiia [Wickenden, p. 6]. We are having
problems documenting Samirovna. Returned for lack of documentation. Suggested
alternate spelling for last name is Samirina, which comes from Samara.
Consulting herald will attempt to contact Paul Wickenden of Thanet.
NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
Darach, Shire of
Caterine Barré de Venoix (kingdom resub device)
Barry azure and Or, a Catherine wheel gules
- Name:
- Approved by Laurel 6/'97
- Device:
- No conflict found.
DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Dreiburgen, Barony of
Kateryn of Kensington (new name and device)
Argent, a semy of lozenges and a chief engrailed sable, a sea horse
azure
- Name:
- Kateryn (Withycombe, pg. 187) under Katharine is dated to 1456. Kensington
(Bardsley, pg. 445) as de Kensington is dated to 1273. Kensington
(Columbia-Lippencott, pg. 928-29) is a royal borough of London, and
(Bardsley) a parish in county Middlesex.
- Device:
- No conflict found.
NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Juan Diego de León (new name and device)
Per fess azure and vert, in pale a castle and a sheep statant Or
- Name:
- Juan (Melcón, pg. 97, under the heading Cursor) is dated to 948.
Diego (Melcón, pg. 105) is used as the second element of a name in the
year 1282 (note, Pastor is cited in de Love, pg. 299, as a given name). De
León is used as a toponymic, after the city of León established
in the 10th C (ColumbiaLippencott, pg. 1041)
- Device:
- Discussion.
NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Mercy of the Healing Hands (new name and device)
Per pall argent purpure and vert, an urn sable and two cubit arms issuant
from base respectant Or
- Name:
- Mercy [Withycombe, p. 218] Dated to use as a Christian name in the 17th.
c. It is also found in [Dauzat,Nomen, p. 430] not dated. of the Healing Hands
- There does not appear to be any evidence to support the general form of the
name. It does not appear to be a valid period formation. Suggested alternates
might be Mercy Healer or Mercy the Masseuse (pending proof that the
occupation was sufficiently documentable in period.)
NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF EVIDENCE
DEVICE PENDED
Steinsee, Canton of (Dreiburgen)
Elana Blakefenn (new badge)
[Fieldless] Two halberds in saltire sable, surmounted by a flame
proper
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel, according to the Armorial
- Badge:
- We have found period depictions of flames in Colin Campbell A Scots Roll,
page 27. Parker A Glossary of terms used in Heraldry, p. 256, Wells.
Bedingfeld Heraldry, p. 118, Elizabeth I's Phoenix badge. We note that Da'ud
said that [p. 3 5/95 LOaR] "... the conclusion reached from this
research is that to be truly proper flames should be effectively a neutral
charge, approximately half Or and half gules ...with the "tongues"
of flame being alternately Or and Gules (or gules and Or)..." indicating
that the flames should be alternating gules and Or. We note however alternate
depictions of flames, most notably the Phoenix badge which indicate that
while the basic concept of mixing gules and Or is correctly sited in this
ruling the depiction of individual tongues of flames being both gules and Or
is in fact a period practice.
BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Dun Or, Barony of
Fionnghuala MacGriogair (new name and device)
Vert, on a chevron between three compass stars Or, three musical notes
vert
- Name:
- Fionnghuala (O'Corrain and Maguire, pg. 103) is found under Finnghala, and
is undated. MacGriogair (Woulfe, pg. 382) is an alternate spelling of
MacGreagair, anglicized MacGregor. MacGregor (Reaney & Wilson, pg. 292)
is dated (in various spellings) to 1292. We believe that there is both a
significant difference in spelling and pronunciation between this name and
Fiona MacGregor of the Middle Kingdom, approved by Laurel in March 1995.
- Device:
- These arms are clear of Vert, on a chevron between in chevron three
mullets of six points and a pine tree eradicated Or a fleur-de-lys vert,
(Robyn FitzGeoffrey, Jun '83). These arms do conflict with Vert on a
chevron argent between three estoiles Or an human eye proper enclosed by two
lozenges of the first (Starr, pg. 511, Papworth). Since the only two
references to Starr in Webster's Biographical are modern and American, we do
not believe that the latter arms warrant protection.
NAME AND DEVICE PPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Gyldenholt, Barony of
Anne de Vere of Brittany (new name)
- Name:
[Administrative note her previous submission (...) is hereby withdrawn,
and this submission is substituted. This requires an administrative letter
from Crescent to Laurel explaining what happened].
Anne (Withycombe, pg. 25) is dated to the 14th C. De Vere is found under
the heading Vere (Lewis C Loyd, The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families,
pg. 110), dated to 1086 for Aubrey de Ver(e) (both spellings are cited), and
is also cited to the same individual (presumably) named Alberic de Ver
(Reaney & Wilson 3rd paper, pg. 466). Brittany (Columbia-Lippincott, pg.
273) is a province in northern France.
NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Cerridwyn Killian (new name and device)
Or, issuing from a cauldron a sun sable eclipsed Or, all within a bordure
sable
- Name:
- Cerridwyn may be a masculine variant of Cerridwen. Da'ud (see cover letter
for LoAR, Jun '96) states that the latter form is SCA compatible. We do not
have evidence of the submitted spelling. As this name is not allowed with the
cauldron below, we are returning the pair so that the submitter may choose
which elements to change.
- Device:
- There are some concerns in the college of identifiability, in particular
of the eclipsing of the demi-sun. No conflict found. Unfortunately, the use
of a cauldron in conjuction with the name Ceridwen is prohibited (SCA CoA
Glossary of Terms, Prohibited Name/Charge Combinations, pg. 7). We are
returning this device so that the submitter may modify either name or
device.
NAME AND DEVICE RETURNED - PROHIBITED NAME/CHARGE COMBINATION
Fearghus MacCulloch (laurel resub device)
Per pale gules and azure, a stag's head erased affronty, a bordure
embattled argent
- Device:
- This resub-redraw does not address the original problem. The submitter
needs to draw the bordure much thicker and the embattling much larger.
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW
Madog Maelgwn map Llewellyn Iorwerth of Gwynedd (new name)
- Name:
- This is a name change from Christopher of Gwynedd [West, 7/90]. Submitter
did not make his intentions of keeping the name as an alternate persona or
not. The name structure mixes early and late period patronymic indicators,
but more importantly implies that this person is the direct descendent of
Llewellyn Iorweth, King of Gwynedd. The later claim is unacceptable under RFS
...
NAME RETURNED FOR PRETENTION
Rhael Anedd Dal Riata (new name and device)
Ermine, on a pile throughout purpure, a Pegasus segreant contourny
argent
- Name:
- Rhael. We find the combination of the first two names with the locative to
be improbable, but it does obey the RFS.
- Device:
- No conflict found.
NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Tirzah MacCrudden (new name and device)
Argent, on a pile between two swords pilewise sable, an estoile
argent
- Name:
- Tirzah (Withycombe, pg. 279) under Thirza is undated as a Hebrew name.
MacCrudden (Black, pg. 482) is listed as a variant of the Irish MacRodain,
which in turn is mentioned (Woulfe, pg. 402) as an Ulster surname.
- Device:
- Discussion.
NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Ursella of Rowantree (new name and device)
Per saltire sable and vert, four suns in their splendor in cross
Or
- Name:
- Ursella is a reasonable variant of Ursell dated to 1207, found under
Ursula (Withycombe, pg. 286). Rowantree is a plausible spelling of the period
names Rowan, Rowntree, and Roantree, and is cited undated twice in our
literature as deriving from rowan-tree (Johnston, Placenames in Scotland, pg.
288, and Bardsley, pg. 656-7).
- Device:
- The college had a vigorous discussion over the inclusion of the words
their, and in cross, and will understand if Laurel deletes them. No conflict
found.
NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL
Lyondemere, Barony of
Nasreen Raksat Al Jamal (new name and device)
Sable, a jonquil blossom Or between three mullets of four points
argent
- Name:
- We are unable to document the name elements, and their construction. The
submitter needs to supply us with evidence that this is a reasonable Arabic
name.
- Device:
- Conflicts with Sable a lily blossom Or (badge, Winter's Gate,
Nov. '82).
NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT
Naevehjem, Barony of
Torgan Mong'ke (new device)
Argent, a Chinese dragon glissant to base guardant sable
- Name:
- Registered by Laurel 3/98
- Device:
- We cite a potential conflict with Arian Rhyindelas of Aldalome,
Argent, a six-headed, double-tailed, wingless hydra statant to sinister
sable [9/79] and are aware of the Precedent from Da'ud's tenure [A
three-headed, five-tailed, bird-winged dragon] "Conflict with... a
dragon...". We are giving this submission a CD for the addition of the
wings and heads plus a CD for the change in position.
(action not listed, presumably forwarded to Laurel as it was registered in
07/98)
Nordwache, Barony of
Conaill O'Cearnaigh (kingdom resub device)
Vert, an eagle stooping and a bordure embattled Or
- Name:
- passed and sent to Laurel 01/98
- Device:
- The device is a resub/redraw. We feel that the resubmission is still too
poorly drawn to send on to Laurel, and must be redrawn again. The embattled
bordure needs to be repaired by 1) making the corners either an exdent or an
indent, and 2) much thicker. We also suggest the submitter redraw the bird,
though we would accept it as is.
DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW
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