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Minutes of the 15 March 1998 Meeting

[Note: These submissions appear on the Jul 1998 LoAR]

Notes and Announcements

Due to an "unrecoverable error" this is not the final form of the March minutes. Herewith is the data as entered during the meeting.

Hi to the new attendees. Lots of people here, so lets try to be quiet. Books and folders in the lost in found for over 6 months are about to be declared abandoned.

This is not the last meeting before Crown. The next meeting Is. Returned submissions from today are not considered in submission for crown! Make sure they resubmit next month. Branch heralds having submissions are not considered "in submission," they must be in Crescent's hands. Note that this is the April meeting...

Thanks to all who attended and did classes at Collegium. Ghislane thanks everyone who came out and helped at the Great Western Bog. 'Specially Darah and the others who hauled the books. Incredible thanks to Miguelle for loaning his computer and to Njal who helped with crying during the confusion.

Madawc reminded us that our Current Majesty is still in submission. She spoke with a herald at a consulting table at Great Western Flood. Who was it [he?]? Further detail unknown. She wants to get this solved before She steps down.

If Her Majesty consults with you about a name. PLEASE consult with her, then let the college know what is going on.

General reminder/statement that it is desirable but not required that you notify a submitter in writing that their name passed at Kingdom. It is required that you notify a submitter in writing that you notify a submitter if their name is returned by Kingdom. E-mail is not considered writing.

A general statement has been raised about what a "Vicar/Vicaress" or "Reeve/Reevess" are. It is not obvious that the terms are always used consistently, conflicting documentation exists. The current belief is that a Vicar/ess are appointed to act for a Baron/ess during a time that they can't or won't fulfill the duties of their office. A Reeve/ss are often appointed with the intent of giving them a time to learn and take over as the new Baron/ess. Corpora and Kingdom law does not cover them, so what authority they have is up to debate. Gyldenholt created the title of Reeve/ss (using a very different meaning than in period).

Suggestion from Hrorick is that Reeve/ss be designated in Kingdom Law as successors, and Vicar/ess be designated as regents. This is up to the Kingdom Seneschal. Crescent has his qualms. He would like to see some research and discussion at the Kingdom level.

Eirikr commented on the Order of Precedence and Grand Marches. First, for a couple (Lord and Lady), the one with the highest rank determines the couple's placement. Second, a household's place is determined by the rank of the head of household, not the rank of the highest member. Third, anyone may choose to participate in a March at a position lower than their highest rank allows, i.e. as if their higher rank were erased and they were placed into the March based upon their lower ranking award.

Golden Rose Herald invites volunteers to be "drop dead deputy" for the Order of Precedents.


al-Sahid, Shire of

Aislynn nic Oghma More (new name and device)

Per bend vert and argent, a harp reversed Or and a tree vert trunked sable

Name:
Aislynn appears to be a misspelling of Aislinn (O'Corrain & Maguire,pg. 21). The name as submitted is unacceptable because either 1) it mixes names of Gaelic and English orthography, or 2) if we change More to Mor, this would make Aislynn the descendent of the Great Oghma, a mythical chieftain of the Faery folk in Irish literature.
Device:
Discussion of device pended until name resubmitted. No armorial check was done.

NAME RETURNED FOR CONSTRUCTION
DEVICE PENDED FOR LACK OF NAME

Arabella Devon (new name)

Name:
Arabella (Withycombe, pg. 29) is Scottish, dated to 1255 in this spelling. Devon (Reaney & Wilson paper 3rd, pg. 133) is dated to 1275, and indicates from Devon. As a toponymic, Devon (in various spellings can be dated to 894.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Trifona Anastasiia Dodovicha (Laurel Resub name)

Name:

Trifona [Wickenden, p. 245] derived from Trifon the addition of the "a" being the feminine form. [p. XVIII example is cited]. Anastasiia [p. 6] dated to 1225 under the given name. Dodovica [ p. 51] is a feminine patronymic derived from Dod.

In the 6/97 LOaR, Laurel ruled that Double Christian Names in Russian, while considered a weirdness, is not currently banned.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Angels, Barony of

Amalric von Regensburg (Laurel Device Resub - Meridies)

Azure, a lion rampant regardant maintaining in its sinister forepaw a sword inverted Or, on a chief indented argent three crosses formy recerclee sable

Name:
Registered by Laurel 1/92 via Meridies
Device:
Previous device was submitted as Chevronelly azure and argent, a lion rampant reguardant maintaining in its dexter forepaw a sword inverted, Or. [via Meridies]. It was returned by Laurel (12/88) for conflict with the arms of William MacQueen of MacQueen, Per bend argent and azure, a mountain lion rampant proper. There was a CD for the field but nothing for the difference between a mountain lion and a regular lion, and nothing for the maintained charge. The submitter included documentation showing moline crosses with bent arms and no indent. Sérgio Luís de Carvalho, in Iniciação à Heráldica Portuguesa [p. 56] shows Cruz do Templo which are quite similar. Crescent notes that while crosses formy recerclee does not exactly describe this charge, the submitter has provided documentation showing this form of cross used in period heraldry in the form of photocopies from a woodcut by Hans Burgkamir in The Triumph of Maximillian I.

(action not given; presumably forwarded to Laurel as it was registered 07/98)

Anneyse of Caernarvonshire (Device Change)

Vert, two quill pens in saltier argent , a chief indented ermined

Name:
Registered by Laurel (via Meridies) 3/91
Device:
Submitter requests that her old device, Purpure, on a chevron between three decrescents argent, a reremouse sable [3/91, Meridies], be released if this device passes. Note to the artist, please make the indentations slightly stronger.

DEVICE PASSED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Christyana Angelique Beltran (kingdom name resub)

Name:
From the minutes of Caid CoH meeting 8/97, "We note that this is the daughter of Selwynn Beltran (see below). We note that the same consideration for her mother's use of Beltran be used here. (Dauzat, p 36) shows Beltram and the variant spelling Beltrand. Given these two spellings, Beltran appears to be a plausible spelling. Christyana is a plausible feminine variant of Kristyan found on (Withycombe, p 65) under the heading Christian(a)." Withycombe [p. 24] under Angelica, "Angelique is not uncommon in France."

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Canyons, Canton of (Angels)

Cardhla Liadan O'Neill (new name)

Name:
The pattern "given given clanname" is not a documentable naming practice in Irish.

RETURNED FOR GIVEN GIVEN CLAN NAME IN IRISH


Calafia, Barony of

Alix de Beaumont (kingdom badge resub)

[Fieldless] On a rose purpure barbed vert a rose argent seeded proper and unbarbed

Name:
Registered by Laurel 4/96
Badge:
Crescent would like to mention The town of Sutton-Colefuld, A double heraldic rose circumscribed "Sigill gardiani et societatis de Sutton-Colefuld." The common seal of the town of Sutton-Colefuld. [Papworth, p. 859]. Crescent also cites Orianna Valentain Corbizzi [Fieldless] A six petalled rose purpure barbed charged with a snowflake Or. [Jan. 91]. Returned citing Da'ud's ruling [Sep, 90] returning Elizabeth Scott of Berwick and Jonas Aquilian (joint badge) due to a visual conflict with the Tudor Rose. A double rose argent and gules. He states that "While there is just enough technical difference, with one CVD for fieldlessness and another for changing half of the tincture of the combined charge, the overwhelming visual similarity to this very famous badge is just too much."

BADGE RETURNED FOR CITED RULING

Bjorn of the Woode Pyle (Laurel Name Appeal)

Name:
Registered as Bjorn Pile of the Wode 12/97. Submitter attaches a petition from the Compact OED. Pg. 263; 1552 HULEOT "Woode Pyle, strucs. and the" History of Surnames in the British Isles Ewen p. 176, 178. A Dictionary of English Surnames, p. 351, p 500, p 501.

APPEAL APPROVED AND SEND TO LAUREL WITH MILD COLLEGE SUPPORT

Brighid nic Muirenn (new name and device)

Quarterly azure and vert, a barn owl argent

Name:
Brighid (O'Corrain & Maguire, pg. 36) is found under Brigid. Nic needs to change to ingen. Muirenn (O'Corrain & Maguire, pg. 141). Unfortunately, this name conflicts with Brigid Morin, registered by Laurel Jan. 90.
Device:
This device conflicts with Sable, an owl argent (James MacChluarain, Jan '73).

NAME AND DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT

Madeleine de la Chatte Enfumeé (kingdom device resub)

Per pale gules and vert a natural tiger rampant Or marked sable, a bordure company counter-company Or and sable

Name:
Sent to Laurel 9/97

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Richenda Elizabeth Coffin (new badge)

[Fieldless] A daffodil slipped and leaved Or

Name:
Registered by Laurel 6/96
Badge:
We cite Christine the Acursed, Azure, a chrysanthemum slipped and leaved Or. [6/73]. We believe there is a CD between a Chrysanthemum slipped and Leaved and a Daffodil Slipped and Leaved, as a Chrysanthemum is usually shown afronty which produces a many-petaled-flower (like a rose) presentation, where as a daffodil is bell-shaped. We also cite The Order of the Gilded Lilly for the Barony of Wintersgate [11/82] Sable, a lilly blossom Or. But we believe there is a CD for slipped and leaved versus just a blossom.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Séadna of Kyncaide (Kingdom Resub name)

Name:
Séadna [O' Corrain and Maguire, p 165]. Withycombe claims that this name is the Irish cognate of Jane. Kyncaide [ Black, p. 399] under Kincaid, dated to 1550.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Zhivana Anastasiia Samirovna (new name)

Name:
Zhivana [Wickenden, p. 281]. Anastasiia [Wickenden, p. 6]. We are having problems documenting Samirovna. Returned for lack of documentation. Suggested alternate spelling for last name is Samirina, which comes from Samara. Consulting herald will attempt to contact Paul Wickenden of Thanet.

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION


Darach, Shire of

Caterine Barré de Venoix (kingdom resub device)

Barry azure and Or, a Catherine wheel gules

Name:
Approved by Laurel 6/'97
Device:
No conflict found.

DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Dreiburgen, Barony of

Kateryn of Kensington (new name and device)

Argent, a semy of lozenges and a chief engrailed sable, a sea horse azure

Name:
Kateryn (Withycombe, pg. 187) under Katharine is dated to 1456. Kensington (Bardsley, pg. 445) as de Kensington is dated to 1273. Kensington (Columbia-Lippencott, pg. 928-29) is a royal borough of London, and (Bardsley) a parish in county Middlesex.
Device:
No conflict found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Juan Diego de León (new name and device)

Per fess azure and vert, in pale a castle and a sheep statant Or

Name:
Juan (Melcón, pg. 97, under the heading Cursor) is dated to 948. Diego (Melcón, pg. 105) is used as the second element of a name in the year 1282 (note, Pastor is cited in de Love, pg. 299, as a given name). De León is used as a toponymic, after the city of León established in the 10th C (ColumbiaLippencott, pg. 1041)
Device:
Discussion.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Mercy of the Healing Hands (new name and device)

Per pall argent purpure and vert, an urn sable and two cubit arms issuant from base respectant Or

Name:
Mercy [Withycombe, p. 218] Dated to use as a Christian name in the 17th. c. It is also found in [Dauzat,Nomen, p. 430] not dated. of the Healing Hands - There does not appear to be any evidence to support the general form of the name. It does not appear to be a valid period formation. Suggested alternates might be Mercy Healer or Mercy the Masseuse (pending proof that the occupation was sufficiently documentable in period.)

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF EVIDENCE
DEVICE PENDED


Steinsee, Canton of (Dreiburgen)

Elana Blakefenn (new badge)

[Fieldless] Two halberds in saltire sable, surmounted by a flame proper

Name:
Registered by Laurel, according to the Armorial
Badge:
We have found period depictions of flames in Colin Campbell A Scots Roll, page 27. Parker A Glossary of terms used in Heraldry, p. 256, Wells. Bedingfeld Heraldry, p. 118, Elizabeth I's Phoenix badge. We note that Da'ud said that [p. 3 5/95 LOaR] "... the conclusion reached from this research is that to be truly proper flames should be effectively a neutral charge, approximately half Or and half gules ...with the "tongues" of flame being alternately Or and Gules (or gules and Or)..." indicating that the flames should be alternating gules and Or. We note however alternate depictions of flames, most notably the Phoenix badge which indicate that while the basic concept of mixing gules and Or is correctly sited in this ruling the depiction of individual tongues of flames being both gules and Or is in fact a period practice.

BADGE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Dun Or, Barony of

Fionnghuala MacGriogair (new name and device)

Vert, on a chevron between three compass stars Or, three musical notes vert

Name:
Fionnghuala (O'Corrain and Maguire, pg. 103) is found under Finnghala, and is undated. MacGriogair (Woulfe, pg. 382) is an alternate spelling of MacGreagair, anglicized MacGregor. MacGregor (Reaney & Wilson, pg. 292) is dated (in various spellings) to 1292. We believe that there is both a significant difference in spelling and pronunciation between this name and Fiona MacGregor of the Middle Kingdom, approved by Laurel in March 1995.
Device:
These arms are clear of Vert, on a chevron between in chevron three mullets of six points and a pine tree eradicated Or a fleur-de-lys vert, (Robyn FitzGeoffrey, Jun '83). These arms do conflict with Vert on a chevron argent between three estoiles Or an human eye proper enclosed by two lozenges of the first (Starr, pg. 511, Papworth). Since the only two references to Starr in Webster's Biographical are modern and American, we do not believe that the latter arms warrant protection.

NAME AND DEVICE PPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Gyldenholt, Barony of

Anne de Vere of Brittany (new name)

Name:

[Administrative note her previous submission (...) is hereby withdrawn, and this submission is substituted. This requires an administrative letter from Crescent to Laurel explaining what happened].

Anne (Withycombe, pg. 25) is dated to the 14th C. De Vere is found under the heading Vere (Lewis C Loyd, The Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Families, pg. 110), dated to 1086 for Aubrey de Ver(e) (both spellings are cited), and is also cited to the same individual (presumably) named Alberic de Ver (Reaney & Wilson 3rd paper, pg. 466). Brittany (Columbia-Lippincott, pg. 273) is a province in northern France.

NAME APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Cerridwyn Killian (new name and device)

Or, issuing from a cauldron a sun sable eclipsed Or, all within a bordure sable

Name:
Cerridwyn may be a masculine variant of Cerridwen. Da'ud (see cover letter for LoAR, Jun '96) states that the latter form is SCA compatible. We do not have evidence of the submitted spelling. As this name is not allowed with the cauldron below, we are returning the pair so that the submitter may choose which elements to change.
Device:
There are some concerns in the college of identifiability, in particular of the eclipsing of the demi-sun. No conflict found. Unfortunately, the use of a cauldron in conjuction with the name Ceridwen is prohibited (SCA CoA Glossary of Terms, Prohibited Name/Charge Combinations, pg. 7). We are returning this device so that the submitter may modify either name or device.

NAME AND DEVICE RETURNED - PROHIBITED NAME/CHARGE COMBINATION

Fearghus MacCulloch (laurel resub device)

Per pale gules and azure, a stag's head erased affronty, a bordure embattled argent

Device:
This resub-redraw does not address the original problem. The submitter needs to draw the bordure much thicker and the embattling much larger.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW

Madog Maelgwn map Llewellyn Iorwerth of Gwynedd (new name)

Name:
This is a name change from Christopher of Gwynedd [West, 7/90]. Submitter did not make his intentions of keeping the name as an alternate persona or not. The name structure mixes early and late period patronymic indicators, but more importantly implies that this person is the direct descendent of Llewellyn Iorweth, King of Gwynedd. The later claim is unacceptable under RFS ...

NAME RETURNED FOR PRETENTION

Rhael Anedd Dal Riata (new name and device)

Ermine, on a pile throughout purpure, a Pegasus segreant contourny argent

Name:
Rhael. We find the combination of the first two names with the locative to be improbable, but it does obey the RFS.
Device:
No conflict found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Tirzah MacCrudden (new name and device)

Argent, on a pile between two swords pilewise sable, an estoile argent

Name:
Tirzah (Withycombe, pg. 279) under Thirza is undated as a Hebrew name. MacCrudden (Black, pg. 482) is listed as a variant of the Irish MacRodain, which in turn is mentioned (Woulfe, pg. 402) as an Ulster surname.
Device:
Discussion.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL

Ursella of Rowantree (new name and device)

Per saltire sable and vert, four suns in their splendor in cross Or

Name:
Ursella is a reasonable variant of Ursell dated to 1207, found under Ursula (Withycombe, pg. 286). Rowantree is a plausible spelling of the period names Rowan, Rowntree, and Roantree, and is cited undated twice in our literature as deriving from rowan-tree (Johnston, Placenames in Scotland, pg. 288, and Bardsley, pg. 656-7).
Device:
The college had a vigorous discussion over the inclusion of the words their, and in cross, and will understand if Laurel deletes them. No conflict found.

NAME AND DEVICE APPROVED AND SENT TO LAUREL


Lyondemere, Barony of

Nasreen Raksat Al Jamal (new name and device)

Sable, a jonquil blossom Or between three mullets of four points argent

Name:
We are unable to document the name elements, and their construction. The submitter needs to supply us with evidence that this is a reasonable Arabic name.
Device:
Conflicts with Sable a lily blossom Or (badge, Winter's Gate, Nov. '82).

NAME RETURNED FOR LACK OF DOCUMENTATION
DEVICE RETURNED FOR CONFLICT


Naevehjem, Barony of

Torgan Mong'ke (new device)

Argent, a Chinese dragon glissant to base guardant sable

Name:
Registered by Laurel 3/98
Device:
We cite a potential conflict with Arian Rhyindelas of Aldalome, Argent, a six-headed, double-tailed, wingless hydra statant to sinister sable [9/79] and are aware of the Precedent from Da'ud's tenure [A three-headed, five-tailed, bird-winged dragon] "Conflict with... a dragon...". We are giving this submission a CD for the addition of the wings and heads plus a CD for the change in position.

(action not listed, presumably forwarded to Laurel as it was registered in 07/98)


Nordwache, Barony of

Conaill O'Cearnaigh (kingdom resub device)

Vert, an eagle stooping and a bordure embattled Or

Name:
passed and sent to Laurel 01/98
Device:
The device is a resub/redraw. We feel that the resubmission is still too poorly drawn to send on to Laurel, and must be redrawn again. The embattled bordure needs to be repaired by 1) making the corners either an exdent or an indent, and 2) much thicker. We also suggest the submitter redraw the bird, though we would accept it as is.

DEVICE RETURNED FOR REDRAW


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